Canning Discussion For Nano and Brewpubs- 2019/2020

[Crosley]

This has been my experience so far with the 4500C (counter pressure). Non-IPA beers seem to hold up just fine, but most IPAs start showing signs of oxidation within 2 weeks. I increased the purge time to the longest it can go. Time to seamer is minimal.

I'm wondering if adding a hose to the purge/fill tube that reaches the bottom of the can would help? I'd think a long purge time from the bottom of the can, with the beer filling from the bottom would significantly decrease oxygen exposure if there's a possibility the can isn't fully purged.

I thought the same exact thing so my purge tube extends down to the very bottom of the can and I'm still getting oxidation.

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[wlw33]

I thought the same exact thing so my purge tube extends down to the very bottom of the can and I'm still getting oxidation.

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Damn.

Do you only see problems in IPA or other styles too? Non-IPA for us seem to hold up fine...but I'm sure if I were to actually measure DO in those beers they would be too high, it's just that IPAs get destroyed much more quickly and visibly than other styles.

[Crosley]

Damn.

Do you only see problems in IPA or other styles too? Non-IPA for us seem to hold up fine...but I'm sure if I were to actually measure DO in those beers they would be too high, it's just that IPAs get destroyed much more quickly and visibly than other styles.

Oh for sure it's more prevalent in anything hoppy but we have also seen it in other lighter beers.

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[Moderation]

Late to the party, just found this thread. I have had the XF4500c as well for about a year. As mentioned above, the key to everything is having everything balanced.

Our setup is 5' 1/4" line off the brite, 34F, 11psi headspace, carbonation is usually 2.5-2.6. What I've set on is finishing the fill, then dropping the ram and FOB develops when the can is being unloaded (carefully). Lid is rocked/sliced onto the FOB to displace excess. Thin or large bubbled FOB gets tossed, which is usually when starting up. I've slowed things down to ~2-2.5cpm, solo filling/seaming/rinsing/labelling.

Coffee helps a lot.

[Blu Dragonfly]

Our 4500C was delivered on Friday. I was a bit surprised to find that the liquid inlet is 3/8". If I bring over beer in a 1/4" line which seems to be the ticket, this isn't causing breakout going into the larger diameter line at the filler? We will start playing with the machine tomorrow, I'm anxious to get it up and going.

[wlw33]

Oh for sure it's more prevalent in anything hoppy but we have also seen it in other lighter beers.

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Question-are you sanitizing your cans? I've been doing some research and discovered that many sanitizers are strong oxidizers. I've been using Saniclean and allowing to drip dry but do notice some residual liquid in most of the cans.

[Blu Dragonfly]

First impressions of the 4500C are generally good. Dialing in the system didn't take too much initial thought, but you need to be quick on your feet to respond to changes and have a generally good understanding of tubing, tubing resistance, fill velocity, venting, and studying the clear plastic can they send you to learn your breakout pressure and set an expectation on fill speed. I was pretty intimidated by setting up and getting the first batch done. I don't feel I adapt to "new" very well but time and again, I'm proven wrong so I broke it out tonight, cleaned it, flushed it, sanitized it, and ran a case and a half on one of our slower moving beers with 2.5 atmospheres carbonation.

I laid out a 20' piece of 1/4" ID tubing as I'm at 6400' MSL and a bit OCD about foam breakout. I put a 1/2 BBL in a cooling tub with ice, waited 15 minutes, ran the lines on both sides until they were cold then got after it. The main disappointment is leaky can neck seals. At about 8-10 psi, it would blow around the edges. I set my air compressor output to 30 psi per Xpressfill's specs. I was wondering if 40 psi would be better to seal it up or if I just have defective seals. I sure don't want to blow out the pneumatic rams trying to correct that. I got good fills but losing that seal near the top blew foam past and was cutting off the level sensor just prematurely.

Beer temp was approx. 34F, I pushed the keg with 12psi CO2, same pressure was sent to the unit. I was getting slightly lower fills on the left unit, generally 8-10 ml less than the right side per fill until I dialed in what I needed for topping shots on both sides. That's one aspect I never thought of is needing to mentally re-calibrate with every single beer batch you can.

It's a cool piece of equipment, I hope someone else will please chime in if they've had issues with the can neck seals on theirs. That's probably a very good spare part to have tucked away!

[a_shorething]

Good stuff here. We've had ours since about May of 2020. It definitely needs some fine-tuning when you first get it. - For the can neck seals I noticed that too. It's a 3D printed part and I called them to tell them they need to adjust the way they do that. The 3D printer has a setting so that allows you to randomize where it changes from one layer to the next (z-layer) and theirs was always doing it at one place, so the little blob of plastic that comes out when it does that lines up on all of the layers. I needed to carefully trim that back on both of mine. I also got some spares in case it wears down.
I would also absolutely recommend a very stable air compressor (used to apply pressure to the air rams) because I can see that being an issue if the pressure fluctuates even slightly (lack of pressure holding the can up against the fill, when the head is filling under constant pressure= blowout of the can neck filler and beer bath).

Other adjustments we've made/things we've learned:
Use a dremel to grind down the sharp corners- the stainless top pieces are well made, but not smoothed, so you'll do some damage to your gloves and hands when you're moving about quickly.
We completely disassemble the head and foot of both fillers after cleaning and purging the internal lines of the unit and soak them between uses. The 3D printed foot will get beer in it and needs to be thoroughly cleaned. When re-assembling, you need to measure how much you stick the level sensor down through (the part of the stainless probe is exposed below the insulation) and the purge line as well. If you don't do them both to the level you like, it will fill inconsistently. (this may have been the cause of why you had one can filling differently than the other).
We made a lexan tray for underneath the fillers, fits perfectly and catches all the drippage.
Added quick disconnect fittings and hook them up with one end on a 'beer thread' tap connection (like a line cleaner), so we just pull two taps, move the filler over, hook up one to the beer we're canning and the other to a C02 line out from the cold room and Bob's your uncle...

We did try the jockey box technique- also tried with a stainless coil wort chiller with quick disconnects, couldn't get it to work consistently enough to be worth the extra setup (foaming). Our current system comes right out of the cold room and it's dialed in pretty well. The C02 line is dialed in with it's own pressure gauge to account for our serving pressure and line lengths, so setup is pretty straightforward and consistent. I'd say we're at 3cases/hr right now which is well below what they advertise, but it's what works for us without adjusting every single pressure for each beer. One person cans and seams so any faster and we'd probably need a second person to minimize the time between fill and seam.

I will say we just sent some random cans to be tested by White Labs and were not happy with the results. We are very small (4BBL) and don't have the money for a $25k DO meter setup. We need to find a way to track DO through our process and get that down (they don't measure DO per se, but do give a result for 'air' and ours was high). We have an extensive group of volunteers and even for IPAs our track record for freshness, carb level and absence of off-flavors after 2-3 months is very good at this point, but any DO is a killer...

[AGB]

Guys, I'm considering a DaniCanFiller. If I do, I'll post my experience. At the moment, the new import tariffs (if they apply) may not be worth it.

[AGB]

Do you guys with the 4500C have any updated info? I'm going to buy something in Jan but I'm suffering from analysis paralysis.

[Blu Dragonfly]

Do you guys with the 4500C have any updated info? I'm going to buy something in Jan but I'm suffering from analysis paralysis.

I have been very happy with our machine. We've had some issues with the fill level controller being a bit wonky at times, all that means when it happens is pay attention to your overflow/outflow tube and shut it off when you see beer come through. Here's what I love about the company though: I called a month or so back got right to tech support about the flow sensor issue, he recommended some different things. I said I'd try them in a week or two (we're on very tight COVID restrictions right now so we've just elected to close until spring) as we weren't busy and I'd get back to him and if those adjustments didn't work they would send me a couple of controllers under warranty. Two days later a mystery package arrives from California, two new flow sensor modules. I had not even made the changes they requested I try nor called with feedback. Apparently, he must have looked our account up and sent us two modules with 2nd day shipping. That's astonishing customer service.

Every batch of beer is going to behave differently when canning, but having a counter pressure filler will help you dial in your fill so much easier with less foam and waste. I would not use an open head filler on this scale. Based on sensory tests, our O2 pick up is very minimal even when I'm running fills and seams on my own.

I give the 4500C a thumbs up.

[AGB]

I have been very happy with our machine. We've had some issues with the fill level controller being a bit wonky at times, all that means when it happens is pay attention to your overflow/outflow tube and shut it off when you see beer come through. Here's what I love about the company though: I called a month or so back got right to tech support about the flow sensor issue, he recommended some different things. I said I'd try them in a week or two (we're on very tight COVID restrictions right now so we've just elected to close until spring) as we weren't busy and I'd get back to him and if those adjustments didn't work they would send me a couple of controllers under warranty. Two days later a mystery package arrives from California, two new flow sensor modules. I had not even made the changes they requested I try nor called with feedback. Apparently, he must have looked our account up and sent us two modules with 2nd day shipping. That's astonishing customer service.

Every batch of beer is going to behave differently when canning, but having a counter pressure filler will help you dial in your fill so much easier with less foam and waste. I would not use an open head filler on this scale. Based on sensory tests, our O2 pick up is very minimal even when I'm running fills and seams on my own.

I give the 4500C a thumbs up.

Thanks for the update and this is good to hear. I have also stopped brewing but plan to start back in Jan or Feb. My space is tight and this setup looks like two people can blast through some beer and not be stepping on each other. I have a brand new, still unused Oktober Model 7 seamer and I'm going to use glass washer to spray sanitizer into the cans. I also have a brand new Easy Labeler but will upgrade that soon to a Primera. After this, I may get either a Gosling or the American Canning filler/seamer.

Two more quick questions:
do you have the 110v or the 220v? I assume they make the 220 for the Euro market but I can supply either current.
I see you mentioned elevation. I'm at about 2200' I shouldn't have any issues if you are >6k. I wonder if I should just start with 20ft of hose?

[Blu Dragonfly]

Thanks for the update and this is good to hear. I have also stopped brewing but plan to start back in Jan or Feb. My space is tight and this setup looks like two people can blast through some beer and not be stepping on each other. I have a brand new, still unused Oktober Model 7 seamer and I'm going to use glass washer to spray sanitizer into the cans. I also have a brand new Easy Labeler but will upgrade that soon to a Primera. After this, I may get either a Gosling or the American Canning filler/seamer.

Two more quick questions:
do you have the 110v or the 220v? I assume they make the 220 for the Euro market but I can supply either current.
I see you mentioned elevation. I'm at about 2200' I shouldn't have any issues if you are >6k. I wonder if I should just start with 20ft of hose?

I've got a 110V system.

20' should be just fine at 2200 msl. You can always cut the hose shorter. I like using 30' because I submerse it in ice to help prevent foam break out and I'd probably keep the length even at a lower elevation because we've just had great results. I realize vinyl tubing isn't a great conductor but it definitely doesn't hurt to help keep the the line cold. Reality is with two people in a pretty good rhythm and filling at about 3-4 psi counter pressure, you will do well to can 5-7.5 cases per hour, I could see achieving 10, but that's pushing it. Essentially, you should be able to can a half barrel keg in an hour. It's pretty clear this is far too labor intensive for deep distribution commitments but it is pretty darn ideal for in-house sales or selling to some local package stores or small grocers you might be in with.

We've even canned some larger runs direct from uni-tanks set at 30 degrees F at 14 psi and did quite well canning. I guess I don't quite get the point of a tank tender or similar device unless larger canning lines drain CO2 so quickly. I glance at the pressure and temp every 3-4 fill cycles and adjust as necessary. It's not rocket science.

It blows my mind when I see what breweries have paid for Cask MCS "machines" when that's nothing more than an open two head filler which closely resembles Xpressfill's open canners and a seamer with a huge Baldor motor mounted on a stainless sink for $16 to $20K? Are you freaking kidding me? I feel bad for people taken in by that but beer is their passion, not mechanics.

I'm somewhat shocked when I see how much money is blown when passionate brewers with little or no mechanical or engineering sense put together a brewery. I don't know about you, but I've had some pretty shitty beer brewed and packaged on $1mm in pretty equipment and some fantastic beer out of a glorified 3BBL homebrew system.

I think our next step on packaging will be a Fillmore. Four head isobaric filling for $25K and up to 30 cases per hour? Even halved at 15 cases per hour for two people, that's really good throughput.

https://www.fillmore.beer/lead-times

I'm a huge fan of their technology and practical approach as well as affordability. Seems like an easy system to devise a depal and pack-off system from it. There's another area I don't understand: why breweries spend so much on de-pal and ancillary equipment that is not that hard to engineer and construct.

[AGB]

Thanks again for all the info. I definitely agree about the MCS. It is basically the same thing as an XPress open filler. I've also looked at the Fillmore site many times. I've just never ran across anyone who has one.

[MainstreamBrew]

We operate a small brewery but have decent size uni tanks for distribution (7 BBL). It is great to hear positive reviews from the XF4500C. Canning has always been our biggest challenge and COVID has for us, just like others, into selling cans with slim margins. We purchased an Oktober Model 7 B last spring for 16 oz cans and have sold plenty with fills off of the tap. As you can imagine, the shelf life is short but we have only had issues with our hoppy beers. Selling to go cans out of the taproom has been great so we decided to go with a mobile canning line to roll the dice. I will say that the guys from the mobile canning were great and it was nice that we had legit cans that we felt good about the canning quality. The problem is that we have to can 15 bbls at a time to get somewhat decent margins that we can turn for a profit. And then we are sitting on 145 cases of beer in our 10 x 12 walk in. That's the biggest problem that we have with a mobile canner. Canning 10 - 20 cases at a time is ideal for us starting out so that we can produce and store a fresh product. If the XF4500C is in house solution for in house canning then that could be a life saver for us. I'm seriously considering about pulling the trigger now.

[Crosley]

We operate a small brewery but have decent size uni tanks for distribution (7 BBL). It is great to hear positive reviews from the XF4500C. Canning has always been our biggest challenge and COVID has for us, just like others, into selling cans with slim margins. We purchased an Oktober Model 7 B last spring for 16 oz cans and have sold plenty with fills off of the tap. As you can imagine, the shelf life is short but we have only had issues with our hoppy beers. Selling to go cans out of the taproom has been great so we decided to go with a mobile canning line to roll the dice. I will say that the guys from the mobile canning were great and it was nice that we had legit cans that we felt good about the canning quality. The problem is that we have to can 15 bbls at a time to get somewhat decent margins that we can turn for a profit. And then we are sitting on 145 cases of beer in our 10 x 12 walk in. That's the biggest problem that we have with a mobile canner. Canning 10 - 20 cases at a time is ideal for us starting out so that we can produce and store a fresh product. If the XF4500C is in house solution for in house canning then that could be a life saver for us. I'm seriously considering about pulling the trigger now.

That was exactly our problem and why we went down this path. I have a XF 2200 that I'm selling if you're interested.

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