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Canning Discussion For Nano and Brewpubs- 2019/2020

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  • Moderation
    replied
    Late to the party, just found this thread. I have had the XF4500c as well for about a year. As mentioned above, the key to everything is having everything balanced.

    Our setup is 5' 1/4" line off the brite, 34F, 11psi headspace, carbonation is usually 2.5-2.6. What I've set on is finishing the fill, then dropping the ram and FOB develops when the can is being unloaded (carefully). Lid is rocked/sliced onto the FOB to displace excess. Thin or large bubbled FOB gets tossed, which is usually when starting up. I've slowed things down to ~2-2.5cpm, solo filling/seaming/rinsing/labelling.

    Coffee helps a lot.

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  • Crosley
    replied
    Originally posted by wlw33 View Post

    Damn.

    Do you only see problems in IPA or other styles too? Non-IPA for us seem to hold up fine...but I'm sure if I were to actually measure DO in those beers they would be too high, it's just that IPAs get destroyed much more quickly and visibly than other styles.
    Oh for sure it's more prevalent in anything hoppy but we have also seen it in other lighter beers.

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

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  • wlw33
    replied
    Originally posted by Crosley View Post
    I thought the same exact thing so my purge tube extends down to the very bottom of the can and I'm still getting oxidation.

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
    Damn.

    Do you only see problems in IPA or other styles too? Non-IPA for us seem to hold up fine...but I'm sure if I were to actually measure DO in those beers they would be too high, it's just that IPAs get destroyed much more quickly and visibly than other styles.

    Leave a comment:


  • Crosley
    replied
    Originally posted by wlw33 View Post

    This has been my experience so far with the 4500C (counter pressure). Non-IPA beers seem to hold up just fine, but most IPAs start showing signs of oxidation within 2 weeks. I increased the purge time to the longest it can go. Time to seamer is minimal.

    I'm wondering if adding a hose to the purge/fill tube that reaches the bottom of the can would help? I'd think a long purge time from the bottom of the can, with the beer filling from the bottom would significantly decrease oxygen exposure if there's a possibility the can isn't fully purged.
    I thought the same exact thing so my purge tube extends down to the very bottom of the can and I'm still getting oxidation.

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

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  • wlw33
    replied
    Originally posted by Crosley View Post
    Just opened up a 3 week old haxy IPA and I can start to see the early signed of oxidation.

    Looks like it's time to go back to the drawing board with this machine. My one thing that I'm going to try to address is getting a huge puffy head of foam. When you watch the videos of the large canning lines and it's a mountain of foam they cap on. Seems like on this machine we get flat beer or too much foam.

    Anyone on here that is having success with this machine willing to shoot a quick video to show the group of your filling process and results??

    Thanks all

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
    This has been my experience so far with the 4500C (counter pressure). Non-IPA beers seem to hold up just fine, but most IPAs start showing signs of oxidation within 2 weeks. I increased the purge time to the longest it can go. Time to seamer is minimal.

    I'm wondering if adding a hose to the purge/fill tube that reaches the bottom of the can would help? I'd think a long purge time from the bottom of the can, with the beer filling from the bottom would significantly decrease oxygen exposure if there's a possibility the can isn't fully purged.

    Leave a comment:


  • Crosley
    replied
    Originally posted by mischmasch.beer View Post
    halloo from switzerland to CDC




    I am using a daniCanFiller Model 1 from www.danisbrewtower.com . As far as I know it also uses Arduino for the controller. I think it is more or less the system you are describing above. It starts from 3980 USD. I got the prototype back then and I paid a bit less. They have a new one which they call the Model 2. It is supposed to be a bit quicker and costs 4980 USD. With the Model 1 I fill up to 14 x 33 cl cans per minute. My semi automatic seamer can not handle more anyhow. I am very happy with it. I even fill bottles with it.




    Michel Rissi

    www.mischmasch.beer
    This is exactly what's been missing, a machine that's in the middle between the Xpressfill and a Wild Goose or Twin Monkey. It really sucks that our options are either $4k or all the way up to $28k.

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

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  • mischmasch.beer
    replied
    halloo from switzerland to CDC




    I am using a daniCanFiller Model 1 from www.danisbrewtower.com . As far as I know it also uses Arduino for the controller. I think it is more or less the system you are describing above. It starts from 3980 USD. I got the prototype back then and I paid a bit less. They have a new one which they call the Model 2. It is supposed to be a bit quicker and costs 4980 USD. With the Model 1 I fill up to 14 x 33 cl cans per minute. My semi automatic seamer can not handle more anyhow. I am very happy with it. I even fill bottles with it.




    Michel Rissi

    www.mischmasch.beer

    Leave a comment:


  • CDC
    replied
    Originally posted by CDC View Post
    I am surprised someone does not make a simple robot for under $10k that is able to reliably can 1 can a minute without issues, 20 cases in an 8 hour shift... 20 years ago, kids were having robots stack blocks to spell words... surely we have advanced some since then...
    I will reply on my own post... I don't have time, maybe someone else does...
    • 1 can a minute is 20+ cases a day and 100+ cases a week...
    • 5000 cases a year is a $0.20 a case per year for 10 years.. less than a penny a can for a $10,000 machine...
    • puts some pneumatic robotics inside of a commercially available glass door beverage cooler for temp stability and lowering DO..
    • fit nearly everything but electronics in this cooler.
    • Feed it from 3 daisy chained kegs per day, possibly use a cold plate for temp stability
    • fill one can and seam one can (don't fill 4 and seam one at a time)
    • move one can from the supply to the rinse/purge, then the filler, then to the seamer, then to rinse, then exit the machine
    • for another $2k, implement a mechanism that can place the can in a 24-pack case and can also add another box on top and shove the finished case down a passive roller... maybe even add 6-pack or 4-pack rings...
    • for a reasonable cost, add nitrogen purging
    no more complicated than a VCR from 1985 combined with what kids a decade or more ago were doing with RaspberryPi and arduino......




    Leave a comment:


  • Crosley
    replied
    Originally posted by Blu Dragonfly View Post
    If I have minimal or light foaming on the beer I'm canning I run the liquid all the way to the top of the neck and place the lid on, there's a bit more waste that way but we seem to be turning out product that is staying fresh. I can't imagine it still being that fresh in 6 months, but we are able to get beer out the door for fairly quick consumption right now. We aren't having issues with it coming out flat even after two weeks. The way the lids are designed, there's such a limited amount of space left when you squeeze liquid there should be very limited amounts of O2. Other issue, if the foam head is too large you could be left with too much head space in the can and that could be leading to some of your issues.

    My biggest problem was over-thinking this whole thing and I was reluctant to start canning until we were more-or-less forced to and reviews from our customers have been very positive so far.


    Thanks for all of that info, I really appreciate it.

    We are filling more than full volume wise. We are averaging 383grams per 13oz can with lid without label. Our target number or closer to 374g. The carbonation on our beer is great after multiple weeks, just noticing some oxygen pickup. Trying to make some changes to the machine and to our process to still hit this 374 number but have a big head of foam.

    I do remember from a CBC talk last year about how much TPO the dead space in the lid would cause if it wasn't purged just prior to capping.

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

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  • Blu Dragonfly
    replied
    If I have minimal or light foaming on the beer I'm canning I run the liquid all the way to the top of the neck and place the lid on, there's a bit more waste that way but we seem to be turning out product that is staying fresh. I can't imagine it still being that fresh in 6 months, but we are able to get beer out the door for fairly quick consumption right now. We aren't having issues with it coming out flat even after two weeks. The way the lids are designed, there's such a limited amount of space left when you squeeze liquid there should be very limited amounts of O2. Other issue, if the foam head is too large you could be left with too much head space in the can and that could be leading to some of your issues.

    My biggest problem was over-thinking this whole thing and I was reluctant to start canning until we were more-or-less forced to and reviews from our customers have been very positive so far.

    Originally posted by Crosley View Post
    Just opened up a 3 week old haxy IPA and I can start to see the early signed of oxidation.

    Looks like it's time to go back to the drawing board with this machine. My one thing that I'm going to try to address is getting a huge puffy head of foam. When you watch the videos of the large canning lines and it's a mountain of foam they cap on. Seems like on this machine we get flat beer or too much foam.

    Anyone on here that is having success with this machine willing to shoot a quick video to show the group of your filling process and results??

    Thanks all

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

    Leave a comment:


  • Crosley
    replied
    Just opened up a 3 week old haxy IPA and I can start to see the early signed of oxidation.

    Looks like it's time to go back to the drawing board with this machine. My one thing that I'm going to try to address is getting a huge puffy head of foam. When you watch the videos of the large canning lines and it's a mountain of foam they cap on. Seems like on this machine we get flat beer or too much foam.

    Anyone on here that is having success with this machine willing to shoot a quick video to show the group of your filling process and results??

    Thanks all

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

    Leave a comment:


  • Blu Dragonfly
    replied
    We can still do package sales here in New Mexico so we finally started filling 12 oz and pint cans from the tap just like crowlers or growlers. They are being sold with the proviso that we do not have advanced canning equipment and to keep them cold and consume within 30 days just like I've told people with growlers since we opened. So far so good, we use flow control faucets which help dial in/out the foam. After sanitizing in a cold bath, I whiff the inside with CO2 and cap on foam. BTW- love our Oktober seamer, works perfect out of the box!

    Leave a comment:


  • CDC
    replied
    Originally posted by Crosley View Post
    I agree that we should have advanced a bit more by how but 1 can a minute???? Selling for $32 a six pack???

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
    1 can a minute for $10k is not different than 5 a minute for $50k on a per can basis, so the 6-pack cost is no different, not sure how you get $32 six packs.

    Still hoping someone with some ingenuity makes a *reliable* canner that can help the small market, 20 cases in a 8 hour shift without human intervention is a great spot in the market. no more complicated than a 1990 VCR, right? Arduino for some robotics and sensors, and RPi for the display/HMI, and the rest is just engineering.. a single head single filler system is much better for consistency of time between filling and seaming... Many smart people sitting on the bench right now, maybe one sees the opportunity..

    Leave a comment:


  • jawsfree
    replied
    Not much cheaper than this guys setup but it would need some modifications to be practical. https://youtu.be/y8utXJVCB2w

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  • SpectrumAle
    replied
    Originally posted by Crosley View Post
    Have you tried it out of kegs? Any luck??

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
    Yes we have attempted canning from kegs a couple times but the biggest problem is getting the beer cold enough and keeping it cold. I think a tub with an ice bath might help....but ultimately canning from the BT is much easier because of temperature & pressure consistency.

    Leave a comment:

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