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  • Boiler Install Process

    I have been trying to get a quote on a boiler and installation for our 20bbl system. I feel that I have a good understanding of the steam requirements of our system and what boiler it requires to provide that steam. Where I am falling apart is in pricing this out.

    I will be using the Columbia MPH30 boiler as an example.

    Columbia tells me that the boiler itself should cost about 24k. What I am getting widely varying opinions on is what else needs to come with the boiler in terms of equipment and what it should cost to install.

    I got one quote for 160k and honestly didnt even respond to the guy.

    At a minimum, I know I will need the boiler and equipment to treat the water going into the boiler. Can anyone walk me through their boiler install process - I am just trying to avoid getting fleeced on the 1 piece of equipment/installation that I absolutely know the least about. The installation should be very simple - the boiler will be installed within 10 feet of the natural gas line and within 20ft of the brewhouse. The ceiling is a bit tall at 20ft, so im sure the venting wont be cheap.

    Anyone willing to share general points on here I would be very grateful - if you dont want to share specifics on here, please feel free to reach out to me at brian@blackflagbeer . One better if you are near MD and have a reference for an installer familiar with breweries.


    Thanks!

    Brian

  • #2
    Hey Brian,

    We got major sticker shock when we first got quotes for our boiler install a few years ago. We learned a few things. First, the quotes we received varied greatly. We got one for around $175k, one for close to $90k and one for around $75k. We ended up going with the lowest bid, which also happened to be the same contractor that did all of our plumbing. This contractor did a great job all around, which goes to show that the lowest bid does not always equate to subpar work (although it certainly does sometimes!). That said, I would highly recommend using a contractor that has installed a boiler in a brewery previously. I don't know any in or around MD, but maybe someone located closer to you can make a recommendation.

    In any case, there are a few major, labor-intensive parts to a boiler install. First, there is piping the main steam header. Even though your run is only 20 ft from the boiler to your brewhouse (this is very similar to our setup), these are very large diameter pipes that require a ton of custom on-site welding and thread-cutting. Similarly, the header will need several drops: (1) one to your HLT; (2) probably a few to your BK; and (3) one to your MLT if you have a steam-jacketed mash/lauter vessel. Again, lots of custom on-site welding and thread-cutting here. In addition, there is venting, which requires a lot of stainless duct and roof or wall penetrations. Finally, there is the steam process piping and associated fittings (solenoids, pressure gauges, etc.) that go between the drops and the vessels. While this piping usually involves a lot of threaded (i.e., prefab) fittings, it takes a while to pipe everything together. It took nearly two months for our pipefitter to complete our boiler install (we have a 30bbl brewhouse).

    Hope you're able to find an experienced contractor who offers you reasonable pricing. $160k is definitely on the very high side, IMO. I think you can realistically expect to pay anywhere between $60k-$90k.

    Good luck!

    Comment


    • #3
      Don't forget the condensate return system and its associated plumbing
      Justin Moore
      Head Brewer of Good Times
      Red Lodge Ales Brewing Co.
      Red Lodge, MT 59068

      Comment


      • #4
        Additional parts that can create a more efficient, and easier to maintain system can add up a lot too. I'm a plumber, specialize in hot water heating, and I can make a working boiler system for about half the cost of doing it really well.
        Ask for benefits and design specs with the quotes, if prices are just lower using sub standard design and parts, it'll bite you back fairly soon.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by kdiddled View Post
          Additional parts that can create a more efficient, and easier to maintain system can add up a lot too. I'm a plumber, specialize in hot water heating, and I can make a working boiler system for about half the cost of doing it really well.
          Ask for benefits and design specs with the quotes, if prices are just lower using sub standard design and parts, it'll bite you back fairly soon.


          Is there anything in particular that I should make sure to include in the boiler/install that may be absent from the lowest-end quotes?

          Thanks,

          Brian

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by briangaylor View Post
            Is there anything in particular that I should make sure to include in the boiler/install that may be absent from the lowest-end quotes?

            Thanks,

            Brian
            Tried to email you but it bounced. There is a lot to discuss, and every install is different. I have been through 2 of them. The last was a 20bbl similar to yours. We ended up being able to have it done for substantially less than was quoted by changing some things around. I would be happy to speak with you on the phone and learn more details about your install and share my experience. Perhaps it could save you some cash.
            Luch Scremin
            Engine 15 Brewing Co.
            luch at engine15 dot com

            Comment


            • #7
              A system that size can be put together will Thread fit schedule 40 Black Iron pipe. There is not necessarily any need at all for weld fitting unless its more convienent and your installer is set up for it. The flue does not have to be Stainless.
              For each load on the line you need:
              A manual shutoff valve
              A wye strainer with blowdown valve installed
              A Solenoid valve and control means
              A Steam trap correctly sized

              A rising stem valve on you main steam header in the boiler room is advised.
              A duplex condensate return pump station with capacility to remove one pump and still remain in service is highly advised. Weinman makes the best return unit I have run to date.
              You are correct on the chemical feed. Speak to a boiler chemical specialist regarding what your local water requires. To do it right, you need a conductivity-ph meter to be used to tailor your blowdown which must be done daily.

              Your boiler needs to be in a boiler room with the correct means of combustion air and a means to heat the room if it may encounter freezing conditions if the boiler locks out at any time. A thermostatically controlled make up air fan into the boiler room is a convention and a good way to go.

              A pneumatic control valve on the feedwater line is highly advised.

              Your piping needs to be assembled with the full awareness that you will be taking things apart and replacing components such as valves, steam traps etc. SO you need unions where they belong and you need space, rather than ZERO clearence.

              These a rejust a few things to consider.
              Warren Turner
              Industrial Engineering Technician
              HVACR-Electrical Systems Specialist
              Moab Brewery
              The Thought Police are Attempting to Suppress Free Speech and Sugar coat everything. This is both Cowardice and Treason given to their own kind.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Luch15 View Post
                Tried to email you but it bounced. There is a lot to discuss, and every install is different. I have been through 2 of them. The last was a 20bbl similar to yours. We ended up being able to have it done for substantially less than was quoted by changing some things around. I would be happy to speak with you on the phone and learn more details about your install and share my experience. Perhaps it could save you some cash.
                Thats odd about the bounce- please feel free to contact me through a private message on this website and I will make sure to send you an email.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Starcat View Post
                  A system that size can be put together will Thread fit schedule 40 Black Iron pipe. There is not necessarily any need at all for weld fitting unless its more convienent and your installer is set up for it. The flue does not have to be Stainless.
                  For each load on the line you need:
                  A manual shutoff valve
                  A wye strainer with blowdown valve installed
                  A Solenoid valve and control means
                  A Steam trap correctly sized

                  A rising stem valve on you main steam header in the boiler room is advised.
                  A duplex condensate return pump station with capacility to remove one pump and still remain in service is highly advised. Weinman makes the best return unit I have run to date.
                  You are correct on the chemical feed. Speak to a boiler chemical specialist regarding what your local water requires. To do it right, you need a conductivity-ph meter to be used to tailor your blowdown which must be done daily.

                  Your boiler needs to be in a boiler room with the correct means of combustion air and a means to heat the room if it may encounter freezing conditions if the boiler locks out at any time. A thermostatically controlled make up air fan into the boiler room is a convention and a good way to go.

                  A pneumatic control valve on the feedwater line is highly advised.

                  Your piping needs to be assembled with the full awareness that you will be taking things apart and replacing components such as valves, steam traps etc. SO you need unions where they belong and you need space, rather than ZERO clearence.

                  These a rejust a few things to consider.

                  Thanks - all good to know!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Howdy,
                    I am a brewer in southern PA. We had Ajax millwrights do our install. Super happy with the work they did for us and the that support that followed. Good guys to work with in my opinion. We have an 8.5 bbl brewhouse. The work is clean and organized with some things in place to make expansion easier for the future. I passed along your email address to them. Certainly worth the quote. Hope it helps and good luck.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Starcat's response, while all relevant and important, contains one very important statement: "Your piping needs to be assembled with the full awareness that you will be taking things apart and replacing components such as valves, steam traps etc. SO you need unions where they belong and you need space, rather than ZERO clearence." Experience may be the best teacher, but can be a bit brutal and unforgiving at times.

                      Using threaded pipe rather than welded should reduce your up-front costs, and leave you with a system that is much easier to modify in the future. A big plus here is that you don't need a steam/pressure rated/certified welder (requirements vary by state). These folks are expensive.

                      We recently bought a new Columbia WL90 to replace our old boiler. This is quite sufficient to run a 20 bbl brewhouse, but not if you want to use it to heat water simultaneously. I don't think the WL 90 cost as much as the boiler you've spec'd.

                      Our Columbia boiler came without any exterior plumbing, but what you need is spec'd in the manual. One thing that isn't usually spec'd but absolutely required is a vacuum breaker on the equalization circuit of the boiler (the pipe loop that contains the float switch and sometime the sight glass). This prevents the boiler from sucking make-up water into the boiler as it cools and the steam and water contract and condense. If this happens, the boiler will "flood", leaving no head-space, so you won't be able to get the boiler up to pressure until you drain enough water to get the needed head-space, wasting boiler treatment chems, water, and time. I use a 1/2" Kadant-Jonson breaker for this and it works just fine. I tried using a simple check-valve, but the opening pressure (vacuum) was too high and the boiler would establish a siphon and flood--YMMV.

                      Site the condensate return tank close to the kettle--it being the major consumer of steam--and preferably below it. This way, you use a pump to move the condensate from the tank to the boiler rather than using steam pressure--which robs you of available heat from your steam.

                      Good steam traps are expensive, but a really stupid item to try to save money on. Buy--new--all the same brand and model if they are rebuildable to make things easier down the line. Be sure they include thermostatic purging valves to remove air from your steam system. Most do. Some also include a vacuum-breaker valve, and this is a good thing. Every low point on your steam line needs a steam trap, so plan carefully to allow a shallow drain grade (1/8"/foot) in your main line back to the boiler.

                      Insulate. Period. Steam lines and condensate lines. Heat is time and money.
                      Timm Turrentine

                      Brewerywright,
                      Terminal Gravity Brewing,
                      Enterprise. Oregon.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        PM me...

                        I can help with a quick review of your quote. There are lots of small things that do add up. Personally, I would ask for all welded construction and use of flanges in lieu of unions. It won't cost you much more--if any, and you'll have an assembly that is nearly leak proof. Unions and threads are problems. Also need to see whether your jackets are designed with accessory port high in them for air eliminator and vacuum breaker. Good manufacturers will include this on each jacket. There are some great tutorials on Spirax Sarco's website that will educate you relatively quickly in the basics of steam component selection. I'd recommend their equipment. Give me a PM and I'll look through what you have. Just buy me beers when you're in production!
                        Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Does anyone have opinion on running a low pressure boiler vs a high pressure boiler (with pressure reduced)?

                          The boiler company I have been talking to says going high pressure and reducing the pressure is the way to go - no questions. The installer who I have been talking to seems to say the exact opposite - go with the low pressure boiler.

                          Always fun getting 100% conflicting answers

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I am curious about the High vs Low Pressure as well
                            One equipment manufacturer suggested it, but from what I can tell, it adds a whole bunch of new issues with having a certified boiler person on premise and much more involved inspections

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