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  • WLP007 issues/tips/buttery flavor

    Good Afternoon All,

    We use WLP007 - Dry English Ale yeast as our primary house yeast. We are having great results with most of our beers but our IPA keeps getting a slightly buttery/diacatyl taste. We are not sure why this is - our last batch was fermented at 65* and let to ramp up to nearly 70 towards the end. The recipe base is mostly pilsner and has a lot of whirlpool and dry hops. We dont really get this from other beers - although there are many variables between them.

    Our DIPA doesnt have the buttery taste but uses brewers malt and golden promise as a base - a lot of late hops and a dry hop.

    Our Pale has had it sometimes - which uses a brewers malt base and lots of late hops but no dry hop.


    Anyone have some best practices for using this English yeast to produce very traditionally clean american styles? Special water chem? Ferm schedules? Anything else?


    Thanks!

    Brian

  • #2
    Are you doing forced diacetyl tests?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by AT-JeffT View Post
      Are you doing forced diacetyl tests?
      We have not as of yet - we have tried a longer rest at the end of fermentation with minimal result - maybe we need to start doing the test.


      The beer in question starts at 16 plato and we let the yeast start up at about 70* and once we get enough activity we drop it to about 65 for most of the fermentation - 3-4 days, and after that we set it back to 70 for a few days. Gets down to a terminal of about 3.5 pretty quickly and after the few days at 68-70 after that we crash, harvest, then dry hop it with glycol turned off - maybe warming back up to somewhere in the 50's or low 60s by the time we transfer to brite.

      Comment


      • #4
        How long is your boil?
        I wonder if Pilsner malt is the culprit here.
        GeorgeJ
        Head Brewer - TDM 1874 Brewery.
        Yokohama, Japan.

        Comment


        • #5
          Could it be oxygen ingress from your dry hop method?
          Joel Halbleib
          Partner / Zymurgist
          Hive and Barrel Meadery
          6302 Old La Grange Rd
          Crestwood, KY
          www.hiveandbarrel.com

          Comment


          • #6
            I have had this problem with wlp002 at times, and switched earlier this year from wlp002 to wlp007 to get a dit more dryness for our house IPA. I have yet to detect any diacetyl in the 007, but also changed my procedures to hopefully eliminate/minimize it:

            1) pitch at 64-65 at ~2.8lb/bbl (we're on a 7bbl system)
            2) keep at 65 for 48 hrs
            3) allow free rise on day 3 to 68 (I spund when it is within 1p of TG)
            4) usually has reached TG by day 5 (this is a 15.5p IPA that finishes at 2.5p)
            5) hold at 2-3 days at terminal, at ~68
            6) crash to 58 for harvest
            7) harvest next day and dry hop

            On the dry hopping, I am following someone else's advice from probrewer. I add 1 lb of dry hops, attach a blow off into a bucket, and let it rip for an hour or two. I then add the rest of the dry hops (another 10 lbs), then close blow off. I then let it free rise from 58 to however high it goes (usually 66-68)over next 5-7 days. I have not detected diacetyl since doing this.
            Dave Cowie
            Three Forks Bakery & Brewing Company
            Nevada City, CA

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by BrewinLou View Post
              Could it be oxygen ingress from your dry hop method?
              this is very true, i often find that oxidation and Diacetyl taste quite similar.
              GeorgeJ
              Head Brewer - TDM 1874 Brewery.
              Yokohama, Japan.

              Comment


              • #8
                I would try a d-rest at 74F once you reach half of SG.


                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by GeorgeJ View Post
                  this is very true, i often find that oxidation and Diacetyl taste quite similar.
                  Oxygen ingress activates the precursors that become diacytal.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BrewinLou View Post
                    Could it be oxygen ingress from your dry hop method?

                    Possible - we more or less fill a food grade container with the hops, open our 4 inch DH port on top of the ferm and dump them in as quickly as possible and close it back up.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by GeorgeJ View Post
                      How long is your boil?
                      I wonder if Pilsner malt is the culprit here.
                      We initially did 60 min but moved to 90 with minimal change. Our next version of the IPA will rely on brewers 2 row and drop the pilsner - so that will remove the pilsner question from the equation.


                      Brian

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by barleyfreak View Post
                        I have had this problem with wlp002 at times, and switched earlier this year from wlp002 to wlp007 to get a dit more dryness for our house IPA. I have yet to detect any diacetyl in the 007, but also changed my procedures to hopefully eliminate/minimize it:

                        1) pitch at 64-65 at ~2.8lb/bbl (we're on a 7bbl system)
                        2) keep at 65 for 48 hrs
                        3) allow free rise on day 3 to 68 (I spund when it is within 1p of TG)
                        4) usually has reached TG by day 5 (this is a 15.5p IPA that finishes at 2.5p)
                        5) hold at 2-3 days at terminal, at ~68
                        6) crash to 58 for harvest
                        7) harvest next day and dry hop

                        On the dry hopping, I am following someone else's advice from probrewer. I add 1 lb of dry hops, attach a blow off into a bucket, and let it rip for an hour or two. I then add the rest of the dry hops (another 10 lbs), then close blow off. I then let it free rise from 58 to however high it goes (usually 66-68)over next 5-7 days. I have not detected diacetyl since doing this.

                        You have good luck with your harvest at 58? We have been dropping down to 35. I am leaning towards a warmer crash and letting it sit longer before the crash.


                        Brian

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by briangaylor View Post
                          You have good luck with your harvest at 58? We have been dropping down to 35. I am leaning towards a warmer crash and letting it sit longer before the crash.


                          Brian
                          Yes, no problems. I shoot for a 10 degree drop after a couple days diacetyl rest. That's all wlp007 (and wlp002 before it) seem to need to drop out for harvest. Actually, I do it for wlp001 on dry hopped beers too. If possible, I try to soft crash for two days at that temp before harvesting, but honestly, I often find myself harvesting the very next day after the soft crash because production schedule requires it. Upon harvesting, I dry hop same day, turn jackets off and let free rise from 58 up to whatever I can get from the ambient brewery temp. By day 5-7 of dry hopping, mid 65-68 in the summer, 62-65 in the winter. In the winter I'll sometimes stick a space heater below the cone after dry hopping to try to give it a couple degree boost.

                          I know that Wyeast says you should drop below 40 to harvest, but based on what I've read on this forum, there are many brewers that are soft crashing before dry hopping without any deleterious effects on yeast health. That said, I should add that I am not doing yeast counts, simple pitching by weight and increasing or decreasing amount based on yeast age. So you can take this with a grain of salt, I guess.

                          dave
                          Dave Cowie
                          Three Forks Bakery & Brewing Company
                          Nevada City, CA

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by briangaylor View Post
                            We initially did 60 min but moved to 90 with minimal change. Our next version of the IPA will rely on brewers 2 row and drop the pilsner - so that will remove the pilsner question from the equation.


                            Brian
                            Pilsner (lightest kilned base malt) and boil length are usually associated with DMS (cooked corn/vegetal), not Diacetyl

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              acetaldehyde

                              We did not have a diacetyl issue with 007 but we did have an acetaldehyde issue. Luckily we caught it before packaging. It was a paint thinner, pumpkin, vegetal flavor. Wonder if something was wrong with the prop we bought from white labs.

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