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  • adw1984
    replied
    Originally posted by briangaylor View Post
    Good Afternoon All,

    We use WLP007 - Dry English Ale yeast as our primary house yeast. We are having great results with most of our beers but our IPA keeps getting a slightly buttery/diacatyl taste. We are not sure why this is - our last batch was fermented at 65* and let to ramp up to nearly 70 towards the end. The recipe base is mostly pilsner and has a lot of whirlpool and dry hops. We dont really get this from other beers - although there are many variables between them.

    Our DIPA doesnt have the buttery taste but uses brewers malt and golden promise as a base - a lot of late hops and a dry hop.

    Our Pale has had it sometimes - which uses a brewers malt base and lots of late hops but no dry hop.


    Anyone have some best practices for using this English yeast to produce very traditionally clean american styles? Special water chem? Ferm schedules? Anything else?


    Thanks!

    Brian

    I've worked with a couple of English strains, it sounds to me like you aren't getting a high enough VDK rest temp, and not resting long enough. We ferment out around 66F, after 50% attenuation we let it free rise to 71F. We had a few issues starting out with hoppy beers forming diacetyl even after doing forced diacetyl testing. The more hops in the beer, the longer it takes for the yeast to re-uptake diacetyl it seems. We've found that the beer needs to rest for a minimum of 3 days after reaching final gravity. We'll perform diacetyl tests and have multiple people do a sensory screening. After no one can taste or smell it, we still wait one more day to make sure the yeast have done their work. Hops are a microbial inhibitor, and seem to make the yeast work slower the more they are present. We haven't had an issue using this method. Try to get 3 noses or pallets on a sample, we all have different sensitivities. I have co-workers who can't taste it in packaged beer where it seems very obvious to me.

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  • jaybond
    replied
    Originally posted by Stray Dog View Post
    If you dry hop during the end of fermentation, are you able to harvest yeast without hop particles in it? I've been curious about the proper way to harvest yeast if you plan on dry hopping before FG has been reached. (Sorry if this is slightly off topic.)
    Yes you are still able to harvest yeast. You should be harvesting the middle layer of yeast (creamy white portion) and have very little, if at all any hop trub. If you do get some hop trub I don't think it will be a big problem if you are using it again for say a pale ale or IPA.

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  • barleyfreak
    replied
    To follow up on my earlier post on my procedure. I am now trying to not dry hop this strain thru the DH port any longer. I still occasionally pick up diacetyl from adding so many pellets this way. I am changing to a hop cannon approach referenced on another thread. I have not had any diacetyl since going to this.

    Dave

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  • Stray Dog
    replied
    Originally posted by jaybond View Post
    Try dry hopping on the first round during the end of fermentation, this will give the east time to chew through the oxygen buried in the hops when they break up.
    If you dry hop during the end of fermentation, are you able to harvest yeast without hop particles in it? I've been curious about the proper way to harvest yeast if you plan on dry hopping before FG has been reached. (Sorry if this is slightly off topic.)

    Leave a comment:


  • honestbrewer
    replied
    Originally posted by Sauce View Post
    Pilsner (lightest kilned base malt) and boil length are usually associated with DMS (cooked corn/vegetal), not Diacetyl
    I agree. Sounds like DMS not Diacetyl for the Pilsner Malt. With all of these English yeasts they floc. so quickly that you don't need to drop the temp at all for HVing. I would leave it warm that way if it is Diacetyl it has a longer D rest for you - throughout the DH.

    Leave a comment:


  • jaybond
    replied
    Originally posted by barleyfreak View Post
    I have had this problem with wlp002 at times, and switched earlier this year from wlp002 to wlp007 to get a dit more dryness for our house IPA. I have yet to detect any diacetyl in the 007, but also changed my procedures to hopefully eliminate/minimize it:

    1) pitch at 64-65 at ~2.8lb/bbl (we're on a 7bbl system)
    2) keep at 65 for 48 hrs
    3) allow free rise on day 3 to 68 (I spund when it is within 1p of TG)
    4) usually has reached TG by day 5 (this is a 15.5p IPA that finishes at 2.5p)
    5) hold at 2-3 days at terminal, at ~68
    6) crash to 58 for harvest
    7) harvest next day and dry hop

    On the dry hopping, I am following someone else's advice from probrewer. I add 1 lb of dry hops, attach a blow off into a bucket, and let it rip for an hour or two. I then add the rest of the dry hops (another 10 lbs), then close blow off. I then let it free rise from 58 to however high it goes (usually 66-68)over next 5-7 days. I have not detected diacetyl since doing this.
    I have used this strain quite often and am still figuring this beast out...It is a tricky strain when combating esters and diacetyl. I like the above method as far as fermenting temp goes. I have noticed that anything fermented over 67-68 produces diacetyl and esters. I typically ferment around the 66 mark and d-rest around 68 for a minimum of 5 days...higher gravity ales could take as long as a week to clear. This strain works great for dark ales that require slight ester production; that being said, ferment around 67-69 for a nice ester note. A good point has been made regarding oxidation, especially when dry hopping. Try dry hopping on the first round during the end of fermentation, this will give the east time to chew through the oxygen buried in the hops when they break up.

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  • wilsonbrewhub
    replied
    acetaldehyde

    We did not have a diacetyl issue with 007 but we did have an acetaldehyde issue. Luckily we caught it before packaging. It was a paint thinner, pumpkin, vegetal flavor. Wonder if something was wrong with the prop we bought from white labs.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sauce
    replied
    Originally posted by briangaylor View Post
    We initially did 60 min but moved to 90 with minimal change. Our next version of the IPA will rely on brewers 2 row and drop the pilsner - so that will remove the pilsner question from the equation.


    Brian
    Pilsner (lightest kilned base malt) and boil length are usually associated with DMS (cooked corn/vegetal), not Diacetyl

    Leave a comment:


  • barleyfreak
    replied
    Originally posted by briangaylor View Post
    You have good luck with your harvest at 58? We have been dropping down to 35. I am leaning towards a warmer crash and letting it sit longer before the crash.


    Brian
    Yes, no problems. I shoot for a 10 degree drop after a couple days diacetyl rest. That's all wlp007 (and wlp002 before it) seem to need to drop out for harvest. Actually, I do it for wlp001 on dry hopped beers too. If possible, I try to soft crash for two days at that temp before harvesting, but honestly, I often find myself harvesting the very next day after the soft crash because production schedule requires it. Upon harvesting, I dry hop same day, turn jackets off and let free rise from 58 up to whatever I can get from the ambient brewery temp. By day 5-7 of dry hopping, mid 65-68 in the summer, 62-65 in the winter. In the winter I'll sometimes stick a space heater below the cone after dry hopping to try to give it a couple degree boost.

    I know that Wyeast says you should drop below 40 to harvest, but based on what I've read on this forum, there are many brewers that are soft crashing before dry hopping without any deleterious effects on yeast health. That said, I should add that I am not doing yeast counts, simple pitching by weight and increasing or decreasing amount based on yeast age. So you can take this with a grain of salt, I guess.

    dave

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  • briangaylor
    replied
    Originally posted by barleyfreak View Post
    I have had this problem with wlp002 at times, and switched earlier this year from wlp002 to wlp007 to get a dit more dryness for our house IPA. I have yet to detect any diacetyl in the 007, but also changed my procedures to hopefully eliminate/minimize it:

    1) pitch at 64-65 at ~2.8lb/bbl (we're on a 7bbl system)
    2) keep at 65 for 48 hrs
    3) allow free rise on day 3 to 68 (I spund when it is within 1p of TG)
    4) usually has reached TG by day 5 (this is a 15.5p IPA that finishes at 2.5p)
    5) hold at 2-3 days at terminal, at ~68
    6) crash to 58 for harvest
    7) harvest next day and dry hop

    On the dry hopping, I am following someone else's advice from probrewer. I add 1 lb of dry hops, attach a blow off into a bucket, and let it rip for an hour or two. I then add the rest of the dry hops (another 10 lbs), then close blow off. I then let it free rise from 58 to however high it goes (usually 66-68)over next 5-7 days. I have not detected diacetyl since doing this.

    You have good luck with your harvest at 58? We have been dropping down to 35. I am leaning towards a warmer crash and letting it sit longer before the crash.


    Brian

    Leave a comment:


  • briangaylor
    replied
    Originally posted by GeorgeJ View Post
    How long is your boil?
    I wonder if Pilsner malt is the culprit here.
    We initially did 60 min but moved to 90 with minimal change. Our next version of the IPA will rely on brewers 2 row and drop the pilsner - so that will remove the pilsner question from the equation.


    Brian

    Leave a comment:


  • briangaylor
    replied
    Originally posted by BrewinLou View Post
    Could it be oxygen ingress from your dry hop method?

    Possible - we more or less fill a food grade container with the hops, open our 4 inch DH port on top of the ferm and dump them in as quickly as possible and close it back up.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sauce
    replied
    Originally posted by GeorgeJ View Post
    this is very true, i often find that oxidation and Diacetyl taste quite similar.
    Oxygen ingress activates the precursors that become diacytal.

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  • T12149
    replied
    I would try a d-rest at 74F once you reach half of SG.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  • GeorgeJ
    replied
    Originally posted by BrewinLou View Post
    Could it be oxygen ingress from your dry hop method?
    this is very true, i often find that oxidation and Diacetyl taste quite similar.

    Leave a comment:

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