Carbonation in unitank without carbstone

[AGB]

I'm dealing with this now: I have three unitanks and two BBTs. The brites are full and I need to carb a NEIPA. Easy, right...but I forgot to add the carb stone! So, I'm trying to carb with the stone through the racking arm. I have a site glass so I can see when the bubbles start and it just blows most of the beer out of the arm and then bubbles and gurgles to the top. I'm using a spunding valve which is set to 13psi. I'll just wait it out. The spunding valve is nearing 13psi as I type this, so I expect to see it start bubbling soon. Next time, the stone will be in the port.

[vinaykumar27]

Simply putting a carb stone in an external loop as suggested may work but,

• May not be fast enough for microbreweries
• May not be reliable enough to repeat the process

A better way to do it will be recirculate through the tank with an inline carbonator. This way you can avoid modifying your tank and still get a reliable, consistent carbonation turned out pretty fast.

Some general background on carbonation systems can be found here: https://beerandbrewing.com/better-ca...ow-technology/
QuantiPerm offers several different economical automatic carbonation systems. For example, one version can deliver 4 vols carbonation from dead flat (think soda) and send the product directly to a packaging line: https://quantiperm.com/quantiperm-pr...em-xflowsurge/

[philipsweden]

Is it like a piece of tube with carbstone inside then you attach it to your racking arm valve?

Yes that is correct. It works well and gets the job done.

[JulioGDiana]

Hi

I ended up buying an external carbstone. The carbstone comes inside a rod that I screw on my valve on the tank. I open the valve and the rod get filled with beer and the carbstone can start its job.

Is it like a piece of tube with carbstone inside then you attach it to your racking arm valve?

[JulioGDiana]

If the spunding valve is additive to the devices already on the tank (ie. you have a prv elsewhere on the tank) then you can put the spunding valve on with a butterfly. You will be using the spunding valve to gently manage pressures lower than your prv release at. Even if you close of the spunding valve, the prv will still be in place to protect against over pressure.

No, I have on one spunding valve on my tank, it comes on CIP arm.

[philipsweden]

Hi,

How have you managed the carbonation on your tanks?

I have a exactly setup and idea as yours, I would like to know how you have done and if it is satisfactory now.

Thanks

Hi

I ended up buying an external carbstone. The carbstone comes inside a rod that I screw on my valve on the tank. I open the valve and the rod get filled with beer and the carbstone can start its job.

[mswebb]

Does it applies for spunding valves too?

If the spunding valve is additive to the devices already on the tank (ie. you have a prv elsewhere on the tank) then you can put the spunding valve on with a butterfly. You will be using the spunding valve to gently manage pressures lower than your prv release at. Even if you close of the spunding valve, the prv will still be in place to protect against over pressure.

[JulioGDiana]

"You might even consider putting the original PRV above the butterfly..." You should NEVER put the PRV above a butterfly valve. It is bad practice as it allows the PRV to be defeated, and therefore is no longer a safety device. It is also against ASME rules, insurance policies, and GMP. Never allow a safety to be defeated. Safety first. Accidents don't just happen; they're made.

Does it applies for spunding valves too?

[gitchegumee]

NEVER do this!

"You might even consider putting the original PRV above the butterfly..." You should NEVER put the PRV above a butterfly valve. It is bad practice as it allows the PRV to be defeated, and therefore is no longer a safety device. It is also against ASME rules, insurance policies, and GMP. Never allow a safety to be defeated. Safety first. Accidents don't just happen; they're made.

To add to the discussion; the reason rupture disks are not often used on brewing tanks is that when they fail, you lose all pressure in your tank. They do not gently weep overpressure but instead open fully, nearly instantly, and cannot be "reset". On a full tank fully carbonated, that means you will likely have an uncontrollable geyser of foam. Replacing the disk and recarbonating the beer left in the tank will result in a "CO2 bite" and you will have much reduced head retention now that the beer has foamed in the tank. There's a reason that things are done the way they're done. If you have issues with your PRV because you're challenging its limit, then you need better suited tanks. Use colder temperatures instead of higher pressures.

[JulioGDiana]

Hello all

I have a few questions regarding carbonation. We are starting a brewpub and would like some input on carbonation techniques based on our setup.

We do not have carbstones and can't install them on our tanks.

We do have spunding devices on the tanks and and use these as much as possible but we have to add some external CO2 on which I have a few questions. So these questions relate to the step after we have spunded the tank and cold crashed the beer.

Question 1:
I understand that a method of carbonating the beer fully is basically putting head pressure on the tank with a CO2 to the top of the tank and basically wait for the cold beer to absorb the CO2. We are trying this method and while I can assume this method would save some aroma it is a lengthy process.
Maybe someone can enlighten me on the carbonation charts. If my beer is 3 degrees C and I want say 2.6 volumes of CO2 in my beer the equilibrium pressure is something around 1 bar or (14PSI). Now I understand this is the equilibrium where no CO2 escapes the beer and no CO2 is absorbed by the beer? So if I would like the beer to absorb some CO2 at this temperature I would apply a higher pressure than now 1 bar and wait. Does a higher pressure always mean faster carbonation? Are there any charts available for carbonation levels together with a timeline of this? How long would you estimate this to take with a 4BBL (5HL) tank?

Question 2:
I have heard of some brewers that carbonate from the bottom of the uni-tank without a carbstone. You would open the valve very little and apply external CO2 that you allow to be pushed into the beer. I assume this process is faster that the one described above however with perhaps more loss of aroma? Does anyone have experience with this process and the pros and cons of it?
If I would try this method should I set my CO2 pressure to say 1.5 bar and then slowly bleed off some CO2 from the top of the tank?

Thank you very much for your help!

Hi,

How have you managed the carbonation on your tanks?

I have a exactly setup and idea as yours, I would like to know how you have done and if it is satisfactory now.

Thanks

[Jer]

I like to know that there will be no leaks when spunding. The rupture disk is a seal, so it doesn't leak. I have had a few PRV's where the spring becomes weak, or junk gets clogged (if you have blow off) and that can cause a slow leak. Two PRV's is just doubling the chance of a leak IMHO. You might even consider putting the original PRV above the butterfly, and just switching to the rupture disk at capping time.

Also the rupture disk can be set for your safe maximum (say 25psi depending on your tank manufacturer) and then I can spund a little more gas (or a little sooner).

Ah, I see. Thx for that!!

[UnFermentable]

Can you tell a rookie (that's currently shopping) why feel that way?? I know what the rupture disc is, but why is it better than a second PRV??

Thanks in advance...

-J.

I like to know that there will be no leaks when spunding. The rupture disk is a seal, so it doesn't leak. I have had a few PRV's where the spring becomes weak, or junk gets clogged (if you have blow off) and that can cause a slow leak. Two PRV's is just doubling the chance of a leak IMHO. You might even consider putting the original PRV above the butterfly, and just switching to the rupture disk at capping time.

Also the rupture disk can be set for your safe maximum (say 25psi depending on your tank manufacturer) and then I can spund a little more gas (or a little sooner).

[Jer]

Oh, and I like a rupture disk as opposed to another PRV, but just make sure you put a butterfly below it, in case you test its ability!

Can you tell a rookie (that's currently shopping) why feel that way?? I know what the rupture disc is, but why is it better than a second PRV??

Thanks in advance...

-J.

[UnFermentable]

I'll throw in this as another imperfect option,

Buy more tanks....It helps with the time and will give you more space for product. Then you can wait until optimal levels are reached. May not be ideal for ales though, as the hop character will certainly die down over the required time.

As the others have said, you will take a long time to carb by head pressure only. Capping your tank earlier will help, however you risk keeping sulfur and other undesirables in the beer.

Adding higher pressure will help, but you will need to reduce the overage as you get closer to saturation. Otherwise you risk over carbing. I would suggest that if you are in fact able to reach a stable equilibrium at a given temperature and pressure, you will have very consistent carbonation from batch to batch. I have found this to be true with lagers that are tanked for a long period.

I still suggest the same as the others. Get a carb stone in any configuration. It's much better to be able to use it when needed than to wish you had it later.

Oh, and I like a rupture disk as opposed to another PRV, but just make sure you put a butterfly below it, in case you test its ability!

[Jer]

+1 to this.

There is no way that you should even consider carbonating without a stone. It will result in inconsistent carbonation levels and mouth-feel, coupled with unreliable carbonation times. Keep in mind that the size/design of the orifice pushing gas into solution matters. The smaller the orifice holes, the smaller the c02 bubbles, which result in usually a more preferred carbonation (smaller bubbles make smoother mouth-feel and less carbonic acid "bite"). This is a main benefit of carbonation stones and being able to pick the size of the stone, along with the flow rate / head pressure used.

Well, sort of.

If you have a way to control how much of the co2 produced during fermentation is held in your unitank, then you don't need a stone, but if you bugger that up, you're screwed. Having a carb stone in place is a good idea as a backup.

In my limited experience, there are no finer bubbles than those made by yeast. Sooooo smooth.