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Foamy beer dispense due to unsettled proteins during cold crashing?

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  • Amit
    replied
    Originally posted by dick murton View Post
    “Have you brewed near here before?”
    I spent a few weeks in some breweries in Bangalore and Chennai, mainly investigating brewhouse performance issues and subsequently recommending some potential solutions, but have not brewed in micros in India

    “Since I am treating my water with R.O i'm stripping the water off of all minerals.”
    If you are RO treating, then it would be easier to simply add back mineral salts, mainly in the form of calcium chloride and or calcium sulphate. Have a look at the Murphy & Sons website where they give addition rates based on CaSO4.2H2O and CaCl2.2H2O. Alternatively use something like Brun water. Personally, if I was adding to RO water, I would simply use the Murphy’s info, as you don’t have to worry about acid treating etc. Aim for at least 100 ppm calcium, and probably a balance of chloride and sulphate, erring on the side of slightly more chloride than sulphate if you are brewing lagers

    “Sparge water pH too high - i.e. alkaline rather than neutral or even slightly acidic??”
    If you are using RO for the sparge, then I suggest you treat with a little CaCl2 to give 25 - 50 ppm Ca, so the pH doesn’t rise too much at the end of sparge

    “I'm strickly sparging at 78. I have seen some use water upto 74.”
    Stick to 77 to 78 C. If lower, you are more likely to have slower runoffs and poorer extracts”

    “Fine milling, and then allowing fines through to the wort kettle - A little yes. Our lauter tun base is pretty flat so its kind of dragging fines that escape during wort transfer and not cleared during vorlauf.”
    They all tend to do that at the start of runoff – as long as the fines are not being dragged through after about a quarter of the runoff. The wort should be completely bright by then. If you are raking, then make sure the rakes are not sat on the bottom - this is a recipe for dragging fines through”

    “Most of the proteins we usually remove before we begin boil by skimming near 98 C.”
    I have never heard or seen of this being done as most people have added the hops by then, but if it works, there is no problem, apart from the safety issue in skimming.

    “Can kettle/ auxillary finings affect on head retention?? This is something I have come across as a draw back when using finings. I would like to experiment with whirlfloc and Irish moss. What do you recommend?”
    Actually, the suppliers claim the use of kettle finings (and auxillary and isinglass) will improve head retention by helping removal of proteins and lipids which would otherwise be transferred to the FV / MV, and may be released during the fermentation / warm maturation stages. They are the same basic material. Whirlfloc simply has disperants added to make them more effective with a shorter contact time. Personally I would go for whirlfloc. Again, have a look at the Murphy’s website under technical articles. You need to carry out a finings optimisation trial in a similar manner to that described for isinglass and auxilliary finings”

    Re dispense temperature and pressures etc –
    Have you checked the top pressure gas on the dispense tanks to make sure you have sufficient to keep the gas in solution? Have a look at www.meheen-manufacturing for the carbonation / pressure / temperature chart, and at Holle – “Handbook of basic brewing calculations” for dispense line calculations etc.

    “I'm not a frequent cleaner but I do flush my lines with cleaning agents as and when the beer in the tanks get over and are ready for another transfer.”
    Make sure they are cleaned as per suppliers instructions – normally at least weekly.

    Finally, I suggest you have a look at some training. On the basis that you are already up and running and can’t afford to take a few weeks off to go to the UK or the States, then there are loads of books around. If you want to do exams, then the IBD have the General Certificate in Brewing, which you can get training notes for. These have recently been updated, and are now far more comprehensive than previously and cover the theory of brewing in basic terms.
    Thanks Dick. I do have a copy of Bru'n water excel sheet but I'm usually in a half mind to risk a batch. I have experimented with CaCl2 in two batches of the same stout recipe (in an attempt to burtonize the water) somehow the batch tasted very medicinal the second time (used the same concentration) Even thou we use a carbon filter prior to osmosis treatment which should take care of excess chlorine. I have witnessed brewmasters brewing without salt additions esp. Germans and have sort of followed in the same shoes so far. However nothing like adding a little complexity to brewing process.

    Yes I would agree, skimming is not a general practise, however again thanks to my Brewmaster to teach me this. I actually think it is a great way of removing coagulated proteins that rise to the top before beginning of the boil. This helps with the hop utilization. Not sure if it is commonly noticed but I noticed adding hops to a wort with proteins on top, tends to form a greeny mess which would remain for quite some time on top during boil. Vigourous boil begins post 98.5 so I have a small time frame to scrape the top. Also boiling the wort for 10 mins prior to adding hops helps increase utilization as most protiens would have coagulated before hops are added.

    Appreciate your suggestion on IBD and Basic brewing calculations, I will give it a look.

    Cheers

    Leave a comment:


  • dick murton
    replied
    “Have you brewed near here before?”
    I spent a few weeks in some breweries in Bangalore and Chennai, mainly investigating brewhouse performance issues and subsequently recommending some potential solutions, but have not brewed in micros in India

    “Since I am treating my water with R.O i'm stripping the water off of all minerals.”
    If you are RO treating, then it would be easier to simply add back mineral salts, mainly in the form of calcium chloride and or calcium sulphate. Have a look at the Murphy & Sons website where they give addition rates based on CaSO4.2H2O and CaCl2.2H2O. Alternatively use something like Brun water. Personally, if I was adding to RO water, I would simply use the Murphy’s info, as you don’t have to worry about acid treating etc. Aim for at least 100 ppm calcium, and probably a balance of chloride and sulphate, erring on the side of slightly more chloride than sulphate if you are brewing lagers

    “Sparge water pH too high - i.e. alkaline rather than neutral or even slightly acidic??”
    If you are using RO for the sparge, then I suggest you treat with a little CaCl2 to give 25 - 50 ppm Ca, so the pH doesn’t rise too much at the end of sparge

    “I'm strickly sparging at 78. I have seen some use water upto 74.”
    Stick to 77 to 78 C. If lower, you are more likely to have slower runoffs and poorer extracts”

    “Fine milling, and then allowing fines through to the wort kettle - A little yes. Our lauter tun base is pretty flat so its kind of dragging fines that escape during wort transfer and not cleared during vorlauf.”
    They all tend to do that at the start of runoff – as long as the fines are not being dragged through after about a quarter of the runoff. The wort should be completely bright by then. If you are raking, then make sure the rakes are not sat on the bottom - this is a recipe for dragging fines through”

    “Most of the proteins we usually remove before we begin boil by skimming near 98 C.”
    I have never heard or seen of this being done as most people have added the hops by then, but if it works, there is no problem, apart from the safety issue in skimming.

    “Can kettle/ auxillary finings affect on head retention?? This is something I have come across as a draw back when using finings. I would like to experiment with whirlfloc and Irish moss. What do you recommend?”
    Actually, the suppliers claim the use of kettle finings (and auxillary and isinglass) will improve head retention by helping removal of proteins and lipids which would otherwise be transferred to the FV / MV, and may be released during the fermentation / warm maturation stages. They are the same basic material. Whirlfloc simply has disperants added to make them more effective with a shorter contact time. Personally I would go for whirlfloc. Again, have a look at the Murphy’s website under technical articles. You need to carry out a finings optimisation trial in a similar manner to that described for isinglass and auxilliary finings”

    Re dispense temperature and pressures etc –
    Have you checked the top pressure gas on the dispense tanks to make sure you have sufficient to keep the gas in solution? Have a look at www.meheen-manufacturing for the carbonation / pressure / temperature chart, and at Holle – “Handbook of basic brewing calculations” for dispense line calculations etc.

    “I'm not a frequent cleaner but I do flush my lines with cleaning agents as and when the beer in the tanks get over and are ready for another transfer.”
    Make sure they are cleaned as per suppliers instructions – normally at least weekly.

    Finally, I suggest you have a look at some training. On the basis that you are already up and running and can’t afford to take a few weeks off to go to the UK or the States, then there are loads of books around. If you want to do exams, then the IBD have the General Certificate in Brewing, which you can get training notes for. These have recently been updated, and are now far more comprehensive than previously and cover the theory of brewing in basic terms.

    Leave a comment:


  • Amit
    replied
    Beer lying in the lines picks

    Originally posted by scmorgan View Post
    Before you over think it, get a themometer and test the temp at keg in cellar and at the tap point. Test the tap point before service starts and when it gets busy and beer are pulled thru.

    I can almost guarantee you are getting 3-5 Celsius drift in temp from the cellar to the dispense. Do not get me wrong, there are lots of other reasons you get foamy beer, but the common one is temp. If you do not know not know the temp of dispense, you will chase your tail and waste lots of energy.

    Alot of the US tap rooms and bars I have been to do not run glycol plate chillers directly underneath the font / tower, i get 4C temp gain from cellar to tap point at one of our venues over the long draw system (20 meters/60'). The glycol plate knocks the temp back to 2C and we are all happy. 4c temp gain is twice as warm as the beer should be, and at that temp it wouldbe cups of foam.


    Originally posted by dick murton View Post
    Another thought -

    Have you also considered how frequently you clean the dispense lines, and what with? Typically at least weekly, though if the pipes and the beer in them get warm between sessions, then you may need to do more frequently. If the rbeer does get warm, then suggest you flush through with water at the end of easch session, rinsing thoroughly. Get used to the line contents and you don't even have to waste much, as you know for example that the line holds 2.5 pints so you flush through when the last two pints are being poured so only wasting about 0.5 pint.

    Follow the chemical suppliers instructions religiously about frequency, temperatures, strengths and soak times for the pipes. Clean more frequently then the minimum by all means, but don't use higher strengths, temperatures or soak times otherwise you may well taint the lines.

    I have tested my temperature at dispense ends but the real drops occurs only when the beer is continously being dispensed say during busy hours. As this beer leaves the cold bbt environment which is being maintained at 3 C and goes straight into the glass. Yes, it foams lesser too. Also continuous flow of cold beer helps to maintain the lines at colder temperature. Even thou there is glycol line running through and through. I assume a 0 degree glycol running continuously isn't enough to maintain the beer temperature that remains in the lines for a while.

    I'm not a frequent cleaner but I do flush my lines with cleaning agents as and when the beer in the tanks get over and are ready for another transfer. I have used cleaned lines for dispense hoping for relief but no luck. But as I said, I fear the glycol coolant doesn't really help with the beer in the line. And by the time it enters the glass it tastes a little flat and stale so as of now we are dumping it in the drain, Till I start to get the right kind of beer as it is in the B.B.T which foams as it is fresh and the lines are not maintained at low temp. However I have a flash chiller placed near the taps so any beer that picks up temperature comes right down to say 3-4 C out at the tap but this doesnt enable beer to reabsorb the lost CO2 due to temp rise in the line.

    Ofcourse, this is a huge problem and is resulting in money literally flowing in the drain. Thus we are now changing the current ones into recommended barrier VALPAR tubes coming monday and hoping this would ease some of our problems and give us more insight as to where it is we need to rectify.

    Leave a comment:


  • Amit
    replied
    Originally posted by dick murton View Post
    It's a bit like asking "How long is a piece of string?" The answer is it depends - on a large number of factors. Only you can be the judge of how long it takes to get clear enough to dispense without excess fobbing.

    Contibutory factors include, and this is not a definitive list by any means, and in no order of importance

    Poorly converted malt, followed by Poor or non existant protein stand during mashing
    High protein barley / malt
    Lack of low nitrogen / protein adjuncts to dilute the protein from the malt
    Non ideal mash pH
    Incomplete starch conversion in the mash vessel
    inadequate calcium in mash to promote optimal pH, enzyme activity and phosphate coagulation
    Sparging at too high temperature, washing out anthocyanogens from the malt husk
    Sparge water pH too high - i.e. alkaline rather than neutral or even slightly acidic
    Over vigorous raking during runoff allowing fines through to the wort kettle
    Fine milling, and then allowing fines through to the wort kettle
    Insufficient boil temperature and time (Pune isn't that far above sea level to make a big difference to the boil temperature - so boiling temperature unlikely to be a problem)
    Too much carbonate / bicarbonate in mash, affecting pH upwards and thus reducing enzyme activity
    Insufficient enzymes in mash, due to poor malt quality / non optimal temperatures

    Kettle finings will improve protein coagulation and reduce risk of haze in final beer
    Auxiliary and isinglass finings additions post fermentation will improve rate of and quality of settled beer, sue to major increases in solids settlement
    Insufficient settlement time post fermentation at zero deg C or colder.
    Poor removal of settled solids prior to carbonation and then transfer to final package

    Having said all of that, providing your brewing and fermentation regime is OK, even if not perfect, then you can alleviate a multitude of minor sins by storing at zero deg C or colder for a few days typically 4 to 7 is a good starting point - as you have discovered, the longer the better in some ways, though of course there are fridge costs / tank capacity costs to consider.
    Thanks for stating all the possibilites Dick. Have you brewed near here before?
    I agree with a couple of possiblites. I think since I am treating my water with R.O i'm stripping the water off of all minerals. So "inadequate calcium in mash to promote optimal pH, enzyme activity and phosphate coagulation" could be a possibility. I'm thinking of blending part untreated water with the treated water and passing it thru U.V. Hopefully this should reinstate a part of the water mineral profile.

    Sparge water pH too high - i.e. alkaline rather than neutral or even slightly acidic?? Yes but a pH of 6.8 is what I'm reading on treated water.

    I'm strickly sparging at 78. I have seen some use water upto 74. But doesn't this affect sugar solubility/extraction and viscosity in run off?

    Fine milling, and then allowing fines through to the wort kettle - A little yes. Our lauter tun base is pretty flat so its kind of dragging fines that escape during wort transfer and not cleared during vorlauf.

    Most of the proteins we usually remove before we begin boil by skimming near 98 C. Whirlpooling and low transfer temperatures (cold break) aid in removing the remaining proteins.

    Can kettle/ auxillary finings affect on head retention?? This is something I have come across as a draw back when using finings. I would like to experiment with whirlfloc and Irish moss. What do you recommend?

    Cheers

    Leave a comment:


  • dick murton
    replied
    Dispense temperatures - good point.

    If the dispense temperature in glass is what you want it to be, check the amount of CO2 that will stay dissolved in equilibrium at that temperature. Check out the various threads re in tank carbonation and spunding on this site for info / comments advice and also (from memory) www.meheen-manufacturing.com, though I have found other sites with this sort of info.

    Leave a comment:


  • scmorgan
    replied
    Before you over think it, get a themometer and test the temp at keg in cellar and at the tap point. Test the tap point before service starts and when it gets busy and beer are pulled thru.

    I can almost guarantee you are getting 3-5 Celsius drift in temp from the cellar to the dispense. Do not get me wrong, there are lots of other reasons you get foamy beer, but the common one is temp. If you do not know not know the temp of dispense, you will chase your tail and waste lots of energy.

    Alot of the US tap rooms and bars I have been to do not run glycol plate chillers directly underneath the font / tower, i get 4C temp gain from cellar to tap point at one of our venues over the long draw system (20 meters/60'). The glycol plate knocks the temp back to 2C and we are all happy. 4c temp gain is twice as warm as the beer should be, and at that temp it wouldbe cups of foam.

    Leave a comment:


  • dick murton
    replied
    Another thought -

    Have you also considered how frequently you clean the dispense lines, and what with? Typically at least weekly, though if the pipes and the beer in them get warm between sessions, then you may need to do more frequently. If the rbeer does get warm, then suggest you flush through with water at the end of easch session, rinsing thoroughly. Get used to the line contents and you don't even have to waste much, as you know for example that the line holds 2.5 pints so you flush through when the last two pints are being poured so only wasting about 0.5 pint.

    Follow the chemical suppliers instructions religiously about frequency, temperatures, strengths and soak times for the pipes. Clean more frequently then the minimum by all means, but don't use higher strengths, temperatures or soak times otherwise you may well taint the lines.

    Leave a comment:


  • dick murton
    replied
    It's a bit like asking "How long is a piece of string?" The answer is it depends - on a large number of factors. Only you can be the judge of how long it takes to get clear enough to dispense without excess fobbing.

    Contibutory factors include, and this is not a definitive list by any means, and in no order of importance

    Poorly converted malt, followed by Poor or non existant protein stand during mashing
    High protein barley / malt
    Lack of low nitrogen / protein adjuncts to dilute the protein from the malt
    Non ideal mash pH
    Incomplete starch conversion in the mash vessel
    inadequate calcium in mash to promote optimal pH, enzyme activity and phosphate coagulation
    Sparging at too high temperature, washing out anthocyanogens from the malt husk
    Sparge water pH too high - i.e. alkaline rather than neutral or even slightly acidic
    Over vigorous raking during runoff allowing fines through to the wort kettle
    Fine milling, and then allowing fines through to the wort kettle
    Insufficient boil temperature and time (Pune isn't that far above sea level to make a big difference to the boil temperature - so boiling temperature unlikely to be a problem)
    Too much carbonate / bicarbonate in mash, affecting pH upwards and thus reducing enzyme activity
    Insufficient enzymes in mash, due to poor malt quality / non optimal temperatures

    Kettle finings will improve protein coagulation and reduce risk of haze in final beer
    Auxiliary and isinglass finings additions post fermentation will improve rate of and quality of settled beer, sue to major increases in solids settlement
    Insufficient settlement time post fermentation at zero deg C or colder.
    Poor removal of settled solids prior to carbonation and then transfer to final package

    Having said all of that, providing your brewing and fermentation regime is OK, even if not perfect, then you can alleviate a multitude of minor sins by storing at zero deg C or colder for a few days typically 4 to 7 is a good starting point - as you have discovered, the longer the better in some ways, though of course there are fridge costs / tank capacity costs to consider.

    Leave a comment:


  • Foamy beer dispense due to unsettled proteins during cold crashing?

    I was just wondering if the beer dispense can get foamy due to proteins unable to coagulate or settle out completely during cold crashing??
    I usually had very foamy beers dispensing out of my taps and barmen complaining about the slow dispense and huge crowds to cater. Surprisingly, my last two batches came out brilliant as I left my beer at lower natural carbonation level but for a longer time at near 0 temperatures. I have also changed my dispense lines and towers due my dispense line causing lots of issues but I noticed that the beer was foaming less even when sampled from BBT sampling ports. If yes, how long do we need to keep the FV at 0 to crash out the proteins completely?
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