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Best options for chilling wort IN the BK/WP

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  • Best options for chilling wort IN the BK/WP

    We have a 15bbl combi setup, so no way to cool the vessel or its contents other than using the hx or dumping cold water in. Anybody have some different ways of chilling the wort? Wed like to use some extracts but they are recommended for hot side and in the 40-60%aa range so we worried about excess bitterness if we cant get down towards 180ish prior to adding.

  • #2
    I don't understand why you are concerned by excess bitterness and why you would want to cool to 180 before addition - simply add a bit less extract.

    Having said that, why not simply recirculate some of the wort via the PHE? That way you recover the maximum amount of energy. Surely this has to be easier, accepting the possible need for additional pipework or hoses.
    dick

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    • #3
      As stated, we want to add the hops (extract) without getting a bunch of bitterness. Cant explain it more simply than that.

      As we aren’t using solely extract, wed prefer not to get pellets plugging up the hx as happens. Hopefully folks have some creative solutions to the small system limitations.

      Comment


      • #4
        Maybe get a HERMS HLT, fill the HERMS HLT with ice water or really cold water, pump wort from the BK through the HERMS tanks coils that are submerged in the cold water and recirculate back to the BK’s whirlpool arm until you hit your target temp??? The HERMS coils would have a larger diameter than a plate heat exchanger so your hop particles should pass through fine without clogging.

        Or build a VERY large copper cooling coil that could be lowered into the BK’s manway and run cold water through it to cool the wort like in home brewing???

        Or just pump off a small amount of wort like less than a half a barrel, chill it down with a home brew style immersion chiller, add your hop extract for the full 15bbl batch to this small sample of wort, add this concentrated extract hopped wort to the FV, then proceed to knockout from your BK to your FV using your normal practice and your concentrated hop extract sample will naturally mix into your batch???
        Last edited by Catfish002; 10-05-2019, 09:29 PM.

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        • #5
          We also have 18 BBL BK/WP. When we want to ad WP hops at 190F we push wort thru HX back to BK. We also have strainer before HX as we would not plugged the HX.

          Is this what you are asking for?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by brain medicine View Post
            As stated, we want to add the hops (extract) without getting a bunch of bitterness. Cant explain it more simply than that.

            As we aren’t using solely extract, wed prefer not to get pellets plugging up the hx as happens. Hopefully folks have some creative solutions to the small system limitations.
            We chill our wort before whirlpool hop additions through our heat exchanger. For most of our IPAs no hops added before the whirlpool so hop material clogging our heat exchanger is not an issue, though hot break is. Here is what we do: we whirlpool right after the boil ends, dump the hot break off the kettle, cool through the heat exchanger and back to the kettle, second whirlpool with hop addition, knockout.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by dick murton View Post
              I don't understand why you are concerned by excess bitterness and why you would want to cool to 180 before addition - simply add a bit less extract.
              Having said that, why not simply recirculate some of the wort via the PHE? That way you recover the maximum amount of energy. Surely this has to be easier, accepting the possible need for additional pipework or hoses.
              Dick - I've loved seeing you here over the years and have benefited from your insight. However you need to realize that over here in the states we are inundated with overgrown homebrewers full of un-earned confidence. No apprenticeship, no attempts at formal education. Snotty comments like "Cant explain it more simply than that." are to be expected. Sad but true, hence I've stopped trying to comment for quite a while now. Not everyone can be helped. God Speed.
              Brewmaster, Minocqua Brewing Company
              tbriggs@minocquabrewingcompany.com
              "Your results may vary"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Ted Briggs View Post
                Dick - I've loved seeing you here over the years and have benefited from your insight. However you need to realize that over here in the states we are inundated with overgrown homebrewers full of un-earned confidence. No apprenticeship, no attempts at formal education. Snotty comments like "Cant explain it more simply than that." are to be expected. Sad but true, hence I've stopped trying to comment for quite a while now. Not everyone can be helped. God Speed.
                Not sure WTF your problem is ted. Maybe some uneducated homebrewers are making great beer and kicking your ass locally?

                If you wanna take your ball and go home, no one’s stopping you.

                Itd be a loss, as both you and dick have been very helpful with advice and answers here for as long as i recall. I appreciate it, and im sure otheres here do as well.

                And to dick, no offense was meant/intended. You know well how us yanks love our hops, so while your answer works in a general sense it isn’t relevant to my specific process problem- how to chill at FO but before WP additions, in a BK/WP vessel. But that is a more detailed answer, my prior response was the most simple explaination- lower temp for less bitterness.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Thirsty_Monk View Post
                  We also have 18 BBL BK/WP. When we want to ad WP hops at 190F we push wort thru HX back to BK. We also have strainer before HX as we would not plugged the HX.

                  Is this what you are asking for?
                  Is it one of the acorn shaped strainers? With the stainless mesh tubes inside? We have one at our smallest brewpub but id be hesitant to use it on our big system. 15bbl isnt huge but id think itd get overwhelmed hops and break.

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                  • #10
                    This is the strainer:
                    https://www.gwkent.com/super-strainer.html

                    You also have to have disposable “socks” for each use.
                    https://www.gwkent.com/super-sock-10-pcs-bundle.html

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I dont know why people dont ship or request a pre screen for their HX. Nothing larger than 1/16" should ever get into it. It will save you hours on having to tear the damn thing apart to clean out the obstructions. I also second the idea of reducing your kettle load pre addition if you're really worried about it, honestly, in my experiences, the flavors you get from late kettle additions or even wp additions are lost when you take the green out of the hops, and if were just talking essential oils, you need to be way cooler than 180 to not vaporize them off.... but yea, thats just my opinion.

                      Bottom line, get a strainer or drop your hops to account for the increase from the extract. The super strainer is pretty good, 1/4 inch is pretty big, so I would have a different strainer made for it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Ted Briggs View Post
                        Dick - I've loved seeing you here over the years and have benefited from your insight. However you need to realize that over here in the states we are inundated with overgrown homebrewers full of un-earned confidence. No apprenticeship, no attempts at formal education. Snotty comments like "Cant explain it more simply than that." are to be expected. Sad but true, hence I've stopped trying to comment for quite a while now. Not everyone can be helped. God Speed.
                        Wow what a bad attitude. It seems like Ted's whole identity is wrapped up into going to brew school and going through an apprentice ship. Unfortunately brew school and apprenticeship isn't always the best route. Having an attitude like this isn't going to get you far. I sense an old school brewer who is losing his grasp of what american brewing is. Get off my lawn!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jebzter View Post
                          I dont know why people dont ship or request a pre screen for their HX. Nothing larger than 1/16" should ever get into it. It will save you hours on having to tear the damn thing apart to clean out the obstructions. I also second the idea of reducing your kettle load pre addition if you're really worried about it, honestly, in my experiences, the flavors you get from late kettle additions or even wp additions are lost when you take the green out of the hops, and if were just talking essential oils, you need to be way cooler than 180 to not vaporize them off.... but yea, thats just my opinion.

                          Bottom line, get a strainer or drop your hops to account for the increase from the extract. The super strainer is pretty good, 1/4 inch is pretty big, so I would have a different strainer made for it.
                          That is why you use mesh sock with the strainer.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Well, you have eliminated the two easiest and best ways to cool wort in the kettle - either recirculating through the HX back into the kettle, or diluting with cold liquor. But maybe you could make an immersion cooler with about 100' of copper tubing? It wouldn't be efficient but for getting wort from boiling to 180 F, it probably would work. Just get coils of copper tubing that will fit through your manway, drop it in the kettle the last five minutes of boil to sanitize it, and run cold water through it at the end of boil. I did something similar to make a CLT tank out of a 20 bbl plastic farm tank at our first location.

                            And this is my annual rant about people not using their real names. I guess I could understand it, if you are posting about looking for a job or something. But this forum should be for professionals who don't mind stating their name and where they work. That provides additional context that might help solve your problem. And it keeps the conversation more civil.



                            Originally posted by brain medicine View Post
                            We have a 15bbl combi setup, so no way to cool the vessel or its contents other than using the hx or dumping cold water in. Anybody have some different ways of chilling the wort? Wed like to use some extracts but they are recommended for hot side and in the 40-60%aa range so we worried about excess bitterness if we cant get down towards 180ish prior to adding.
                            Linus Hall
                            Yazoo Brewing
                            Nashville, TN
                            [url]www.yazoobrew.com[/url]

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by lhall View Post
                              Well, you have eliminated the two easiest and best ways to cool wort in the kettle - either recirculating through the HX back into the kettle, or diluting with cold liquor. But maybe you could make an immersion cooler with about 100' of copper tubing? It wouldn't be efficient but for getting wort from boiling to 180 F, it probably would work. Just get coils of copper tubing that will fit through your manway, drop it in the kettle the last five minutes of boil to sanitize it, and run cold water through it at the end of boil. I did something similar to make a CLT tank out of a 20 bbl plastic farm tank at our first location.

                              And this is my annual rant about people not using their real names. I guess I could understand it, if you are posting about looking for a job or something. But this forum should be for professionals who don't mind stating their name and where they work. That provides additional context that might help solve your problem. And it keeps the conversation more civil.
                              I would suggest you invest in making the immersion coil out of stainless tubing instead, simply because of the soft metallurgy of 99% copper. If you are putting in and out of a manway, it will be subject to handling that could bend and pinch it shut. Also you can be a bit more aggressive with CIP if needed.

                              I understand that some people like to use their real names as signature on internet forums, but I choose not to. There is no potential added value in my opinion, that cannot be provided with simply sharing context of the situation. I provide my name if someone asks, or if there is business to be done, or if a relationship has formed, but frankly I feel it is irrelevant information to solving problems or providing quality advice. Likewise, I feel anonymity in opinions influences the receiver to seek multiple sources for information as opposed to seeking one "credible" or "recognized" source (Thanks CNN and FOX!). The hope is that through a search for information, the "seeker" will learn and contribute something back to the conversation. We should be treating people with equal respect, so names shouldn't be important.

                              I think the breakdown in this thread came in a lack of included context. Do to a generalization in the question of the original post, there were many details left out. There is no context on why PHE or CLT water are unsuitable in this situation. Dick (appears to me) is looking for context when asking his questions, leaving it open for more context to be provided on the situation, but also offering simple suggestions as to not leave the OP empty handed. I would agree with Tim that the response was a bit sharp, in the sense it provided no additional context on the Less Extract Addition Question, but did then provide a bit of context on the PHE situation.

                              The comment "Can't explain it more simply than that", pushes in the exact wrong direction as the whole point was to get more details about why you need alternative methods from common practice. The follow-up appears to have answered the PHE concerns, but may have also provided enough context for me to give another alternative option. Perhaps you can bag your kettle addition hops in nylon bags to avoid them going through the PHE, allowing you to used the method suggested by others? I do this with citrus peels, for example.

                              Context on if you are applying this problem/solution to your smaller brewpub system, or your 15bbl system would help, as answers for one are going to be drastically different than the answers for the other.

                              We are still fairly unclear as to why adding CLT water is not an option though. Not available on hand? Other concerns? The more context provided, the better suggestions you can receive. I was always taught "dumb questions receive dumb answers", so when I get a response as such, I pause to reflect on my question. Not by any means saying that these were dumb questions, only that we need to reflect on the information we provide when seeking help, and not assume people know the context of our unique circumstances.

                              More context on your hop extracts might provide further insight as well. Most are made with the purpose of increasing the alpha content of your wort, and are primarily implemented to reduce cost, increase yield and improve consistency. Often extracts are added hot-side specifically to isomerize alpha acids and impart the bitterness wile a smaller charge of pelletized hops might be used for flavor or aroma additions. Obviously you are looking to do something different, or have another type of hop extract (perhaps terpenes, etc). The more you give the more you will receive, tis the season.

                              To Jebzter - I do not like the strainers. They have more tendency to blind and restrict flow than the PHE, in my experience. A proper kettle should have a raised outlet to avoid drawing in solid material, or possibly a "hop dam" or standpipe if required. I would also advocate the use of type 45 pellets. I use nylon strainer bags when needed to avoid anything like citrus peel getting into PHE. Back-flush properly immediately after KO, CIP religiously, and pack with PAA is my go to. I do flow rate checks and plate petri so that I don't have to rebuild the PHE "for the fun of it".

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