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Best options for chilling wort IN the BK/WP

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  • #16
    Originally posted by lhall View Post
    Well, you have eliminated the two easiest and best ways to cool wort in the kettle - either recirculating through the HX back into the kettle, or diluting with cold liquor. But maybe you could make an immersion cooler with about 100' of copper tubing? It wouldn't be efficient but for getting wort from boiling to 180 F, it probably would work. Just get coils of copper tubing that will fit through your manway, drop it in the kettle the last five minutes of boil to sanitize it, and run cold water through it at the end of boil. I did something similar to make a CLT tank out of a 20 bbl plastic farm tank at our first location.

    And this is my annual rant about people not using their real names. I guess I could understand it, if you are posting about looking for a job or something. But this forum should be for professionals who don't mind stating their name and where they work. That provides additional context that might help solve your problem. And it keeps the conversation more civil.
    haven't eliminated cold water infusion, or HX. just looking for other ideas. we dont have a CLT, so our groundwater is at most down to about 50F. it'll chill a bit, but not that much when only adding say 10%. not sure I want to dilute further than that. I guess ice would work, but I'd want to make sure it's filtered, no chlorine/amines, etc. and not sure about the ease or cost of dealing with that.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by UnFermentable View Post
      I would suggest you invest in making the immersion coil out of stainless tubing instead, simply because of the soft metallurgy of 99% copper. If you are putting in and out of a manway, it will be subject to handling that could bend and pinch it shut. Also you can be a bit more aggressive with CIP if needed.

      I understand that some people like to use their real names as signature on internet forums, but I choose not to. There is no potential added value in my opinion, that cannot be provided with simply sharing context of the situation. I provide my name if someone asks, or if there is business to be done, or if a relationship has formed, but frankly I feel it is irrelevant information to solving problems or providing quality advice. Likewise, I feel anonymity in opinions influences the receiver to seek multiple sources for information as opposed to seeking one "credible" or "recognized" source (Thanks CNN and FOX!). The hope is that through a search for information, the "seeker" will learn and contribute something back to the conversation. We should be treating people with equal respect, so names shouldn't be important.

      I think the breakdown in this thread came in a lack of included context. Do to a generalization in the question of the original post, there were many details left out. There is no context on why PHE or CLT water are unsuitable in this situation. Dick (appears to me) is looking for context when asking his questions, leaving it open for more context to be provided on the situation, but also offering simple suggestions as to not leave the OP empty handed. I would agree with Tim that the response was a bit sharp, in the sense it provided no additional context on the Less Extract Addition Question, but did then provide a bit of context on the PHE situation.

      The comment "Can't explain it more simply than that", pushes in the exact wrong direction as the whole point was to get more details about why you need alternative methods from common practice. The follow-up appears to have answered the PHE concerns, but may have also provided enough context for me to give another alternative option. Perhaps you can bag your kettle addition hops in nylon bags to avoid them going through the PHE, allowing you to used the method suggested by others? I do this with citrus peels, for example.

      Context on if you are applying this problem/solution to your smaller brewpub system, or your 15bbl system would help, as answers for one are going to be drastically different than the answers for the other.

      We are still fairly unclear as to why adding CLT water is not an option though. Not available on hand? Other concerns? The more context provided, the better suggestions you can receive. I was always taught "dumb questions receive dumb answers", so when I get a response as such, I pause to reflect on my question. Not by any means saying that these were dumb questions, only that we need to reflect on the information we provide when seeking help, and not assume people know the context of our unique circumstances.

      More context on your hop extracts might provide further insight as well. Most are made with the purpose of increasing the alpha content of your wort, and are primarily implemented to reduce cost, increase yield and improve consistency. Often extracts are added hot-side specifically to isomerize alpha acids and impart the bitterness wile a smaller charge of pelletized hops might be used for flavor or aroma additions. Obviously you are looking to do something different, or have another type of hop extract (perhaps terpenes, etc). The more you give the more you will receive, tis the season.

      To Jebzter - I do not like the strainers. They have more tendency to blind and restrict flow than the PHE, in my experience. A proper kettle should have a raised outlet to avoid drawing in solid material, or possibly a "hop dam" or standpipe if required. I would also advocate the use of type 45 pellets. I use nylon strainer bags when needed to avoid anything like citrus peel getting into PHE. Back-flush properly immediately after KO, CIP religiously, and pack with PAA is my go to. I do flow rate checks and plate petri so that I don't have to rebuild the PHE "for the fun of it".
      the reason I didn't add a bunch of details is I didn't want this to get bogged down in the details. if you read my initial post there is one very simple question asked-
      Anybody have some different ways of chilling the wort... (in the kettle, besides HX recirc and cold water infusion)?

      those are the only answers im interested in. so I post something here, hoping that somebody out there has done something out of the box and unusual and that it might just work for us. questions cost nothing, I'd consider that a low cost/ high return situation if we get some good ideas. and you dont need my system details to answer the question- only to state what crazy solution might have worked for you.

      sometimes you just need to stop yourself from going full on engineer on the problem analyzation and just think about the damn question as asked. its clearly a "blue sky" /imagination type answer im seeking and not a detailed engineering answer.

      now if you think using free thinking and imagination is "dumb" then that probably says more about you than me. lets stop those comments. Mr Unfermentable has been kind and generous with answers and advice here, so my intent is not to offend. but it doesn't take 50 years of brewing or a degree from Seibel to solve basic problems in the brewhouse. lets not start condescending to each other here or making assumptions about each other based on random posts/questions.

      and for the last time - DICK I MEANT NO DISRESPECT. honest. you're always a source of great info here. apologies if I offended.

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      • #18
        Hows dis fo outta da box...….Dry ice? Colder that water ice, wont dilute your wort and the only byproduct is earth destroying CO2 But I suppose most of us are cool with that given that we are brewers....just kidd'n, didn't mean to go there.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by brain medicine View Post
          haven't eliminated cold water infusion, or HX. just looking for other ideas. we dont have a CLT, so our groundwater is at most down to about 50F. it'll chill a bit, but not that much when only adding say 10%. not sure I want to dilute further than that. I guess ice would work, but I'd want to make sure it's filtered, no chlorine/amines, etc. and not sure about the ease or cost of dealing with that.
          This makes sense. I can understand this completely. For the CLT dilution option for you, it sounds like it may require high gravity brewing, which may not be possible or desirable in your situation. Ice is going to give you some advantage over your ground water, but will likely provide some logistical challenges.

          Here is my solution to a no CLT problem, not sure if it is an option for you. Fill your clean intended KO fermenter the night before with filtered groundwater (~50*F) utilizing the extra 20-25% normally reserved for head space. Crash it to as cold as you can handle with your system balance (~36*F). At EOB, Recirc the wort in the kettle/whirlpool through PHE while running your fermenter (CLT) water through PHE to ground or wherever you want (HLT). Bring kettle down to desired temp and proceed as you intend with your schedule. Dump most of the remaining water, PAA cycle, Dump, and I'm your uncle.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Sauce View Post
            Hows dis fo outta da box...….Dry ice? Colder that water ice, wont dilute your wort and the only byproduct is earth destroying CO2 But I suppose most of us are cool with that given that we are brewers....just kidd'n, didn't mean to go there.
            The environment isn't the problem, physics is! But we're here to brain-storm, not to explain why this amazingly great free thinking idea won't work.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Thirsty_Monk View Post
              We also have 18 BBL BK/WP. When we want to ad WP hops at 190F we push wort thru HX back to BK. We also have strainer before HX as we would not plugged the HX.

              Is this what you are asking for?
              What strainer are you using? I only have a 1bbl but I’m having a hard time keeping the plate chiller from plugging. I’m guessing your strainer is too large but it will give me a good idea on style.

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              • #22
                Best options for chilling wort IN the BK/WP

                Originally posted by Validation View Post
                What strainer are you using? I only have a 1bbl but I’m having a hard time keeping the plate chiller from plugging. I’m guessing your strainer is too large but it will give me a good idea on style.
                Look up post #10 in this thread where i included a link to GW Kent strainer and disposable socks. I have this strainer for about 10 years now.

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                • #23
                  dry ice was a thought, but no idea how to calculate how much we'd need. definitley out of the box.

                  i've been working some more here and decided on a different route we're gonna try tomorrow. hop extract for bittering, so nothing in the kettle except hot break by the time we get to flameout. but as i've read/heard that you'll be missing out on some of the other stuff in hops, i decided to throw in about 5lbs of cascade flowers in two giant hop socks at flameout. should add less than 1ibu and hopefully make up for lack of vegetable matter. my assumption here is that the socks will keep the hops floating on top. if they sink, at least it should be somewhat easy to pull the sock away from outlet port with a paddle, if need be.

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                  • #24
                    OK, I'll come back to this thread. Firstly, I suspected you probably were looking for aroma and minimal additional bitterness, but using extracts, as pointed out earlier, normally is for bitterness addition, so I was a bit puzzled. Anyway, why even cool prior to late (aroma hop) addition? If you add a few less bittering hops, then if you get a few percent utilisation from the aroma hops, then you can save a bit of money. I do accept that some of the aroma will be purged off, more than if you cool it slightly. Now obviously every system is different, but where I have been fortunate to have access to free bitterness analysis courtesy of - well lets not incriminate anyone, I have found between 9 and 15% utilisation (scarily high eh?) from late kettle hop additions, and say a five minute stand, with 10 minute casting time and 40 minute runoff - something that doesn't seem to be reflected in all the homebrew utilisation tables.

                    But lots of cooling options suggested - all would work, and have the advantage of minimising the DMS should your malt, recipe and process be likely to introduce additional but undesirable DMS (I accept virtually negligible risk if brewing a decently high hop aroma ale - but you may be talking about a higher hop aroma pilsener base lager)
                    dick

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by brain medicine View Post
                      dry ice was a thought, but no idea how to calculate how much we'd need. definitley out of the box
                      Well the calculation is the easy part. Explaining why chunks of dry ice in a pot of water do not cause it to turn to ice is the hard part. It was more of a sublimate joke

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by dick murton View Post
                        OK, I'll come back to this thread. Firstly, I suspected you probably were looking for aroma and minimal additional bitterness, but using extracts, as pointed out earlier, normally is for bitterness addition, so I was a bit puzzled. Anyway, why even cool prior to late (aroma hop) addition?
                        The extract in question is not for bittering. Its for aroma. Which is why i didn’t wanna go in hot. Its expensive stuff, very potent, and as its concentrated i really didn’t want to find out that it has the equivalent of 30-40-50 %aa if you isomerize it by coming in too hot. Good way to wind up with a dumper. In any case, this brew with extract isnt the issue as it wouldn’t clog your hx.

                        The search for cooling ideas is for lighter colored hoppy beers. You dont want them sitting in the kettle hot and possibly leaving dms, and you dont wanna lose aroma from those expensive hops by going in too hot. IPL for instance.

                        I think we might try a combination of topping off with a bit of cold water as well as switching to an extract for bittering, which means no pellets in the kettle to clog the hx until its time for the big wp additions.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by UnFermentable View Post
                          Well the calculation is the easy part. Explaining why chunks of dry ice in a pot of water do not cause it to turn to ice is the hard part. It was more of a sublimate joke
                          I still dont get it.....

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                          • #28
                            Ah well. This thread is going from the sublime to the ridiculous



                            Look up the properties of dry ice
                            dick

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