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  • Colin D'Orge
    replied
    Thanks for the input!

    Leave a comment:


  • bbrewin
    replied
    Thanks for sharing this advice you gleened from YOUR efforts. Prost!

    Leave a comment:


  • Natrat
    replied
    Sorry that I've been hanging back on this subject.

    I am now with a different brewery, and in a different position. The brewery I was working with on the olive oil made it very clear to me (soon after I started posting my experiments) that they considered what I was doing to be their property, and did not want me to discuss it with anyone. Anywhere.

    Needless to say, I didn't like that much.

    I am no longer in possession of the hard data from my run of experiments, as they were very careful in making sure that it was all in house. But I can offer up a few bits of advice.

    1. Don't use oil in place of o2 if you are in a fast paced production environment. The lag times I experienced often added 20-50 extra hours in fermentation, which can be a lot if you are on a tight rotation. If you can add two fermenters to your corral...well, that's different. Having said that, I had almost no lag if I mixed the oil with a bit of fresh wort, and then added that to the yeast about 6 hours before pitching.

    2. I had better luck and better yields using grapeseed oil. Also, every grapeseed oil I tested was aseptic, as opposed to getting colonies in about 50% of the olive oils I tested.

    3. Not using o2 seems to encourage yeast to make more esters. I did a few batches with neither 02 nor grapeseed oil, and the taste profiles were more like the the oil batches than the o2 batches. I admit I only tried this with two yeasts, but both were fairly neutral yeasts common in the industry, and both gave noticeably more esters in fermentation.

    4. I have bottles of beer that are now more than a year old, made with no o2. They do not seem to taste stale. My measured Do2 in the brites made with oil-fed yeast were in the 5-8 ppb range. Yeah. My Do2 in the brites on oxygenated beers were 19-25 ppb.


    The position I am in now will keep me from any more experimentation any time soon. I watch this thread with interest, and would love to see someone else duplicate my own explorations. I have a feeling that I may get a phone call from an irate someone after posting this, but I think it warrants more exploration. Hopefully someone reading this will get as intrigued as I did, and put some more development into the idea!
    I love the thought that someone might be able to keep their Do2 in the finished beer to below 8 ppb. Then, if they were using a packaging method with low air pickups (say, a Cask canner) they might be able to stay under 15 ppb in their finished product! Or even less. Cool beans.

    nat

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  • sbradt
    replied
    Still going?

    Natrat, it's been almost a year now since your original trials were posted. Question is - did you decide to stick with the olive oil or go back to O2?

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  • NorthernBrewer
    replied
    Aseptic olive oil

    I have been following this thread for a number of months and now am interested enough to give Olive Oil a try. But I have a question. How do you know if your olive oil is aseptic (other than plating)? I guess one could boil it with a bit of water, but would that change the composition?

    Leave a comment:


  • MatthewS
    replied
    I was chatting the other day with some students from Hampshire College in Amherst, MA. The Zymurgy program there has been going for about 4 years now. Apparently they are doing a study with Olive Oil. Not sure what they have concluded or if they are just in the beginning stages of the study. I will get in touch with them and report back when I get some more info.

    Leave a comment:


  • South County
    replied
    updates....?

    Just wanted to bump this one to see if anyone has anything to add about there success and implementation. The more and more I research this, I'm thinking Olive oil additions have some skeleton in the closet or... its a case of "if it ain't broke don't fix it!" ...otherwise I'm sold on switching over.

    Leave a comment:


  • Colin D'Orge
    replied
    I wanted to give this thread a bump because I find it fascinating. It's been quite a while, any solid conclusions?

    Leave a comment:


  • Bierkoenig
    replied
    Natrat,

    I was following this Olive Oil experiment of yours. Any update?

    Leave a comment:


  • liammckenna
    replied
    Is any one trying this with repitch yeast?

    Dried yeast is often supplemented with growth factors (like linoleic acid). To help it establish, oxygen/aeration or not.

    Pax.

    Liam

    Leave a comment:


  • gitchegumee
    replied
    Not just in olive oil...

    Linoleic acid is a much smaller fraction of olive oil than it is in many other oils. For example, rather than "just" about 10% linoleic acid for olive oil, safflower oil has 78%. Most other common oils have higher percentages than does olive oil. Some of the research I've read indicates that a form of cholesterol is also helpful for yeast to reproduce by providing sterols for cell wall growth. Earlier in this thread Vendetta posted that he uses dried egg yolk as this source of cholesterol in conjunction with olive oil. Interesting to note that egg yolk is 16% linoleic acid. Even more than olive oil with the added benefit of cholesterol. So, why olive oil and not egg yolk?

    Also, might be best to measure carefully:
    "One of the major oxidative reactions (in beer) is the oxidation of linoleic acid, which gives beer a "cardboard-like" flavor; it has a flavor threshold of as little as 0.1 parts per billion (ppb). Flavor loss is accelerated in the presence of light and certain metal ions."
    I know that taste & I don't like it!

    Leave a comment:


  • Dough In
    replied
    Acai

    Was reading on oprah.com about Acai juice
    And its high content of oelic acid.
    This is an extremely interesting thread and I
    Hope this may be of interest. I am going to
    Do my own tests with OO and perhaps other
    Sources of the acid as well.
    http://www.oprah.com/health/Acai-Dr-...No-1-Superfood

    Leave a comment:


  • gitchegumee
    replied
    It depends on how busy we are, but I usually pitch a fresh brick of yeast every batch. I'm using 3 different yeasts, so this allows the most flexibility. Most of my beers don't get any aeration before pitch. Only our best selling Light beer gets oxygen. I want that to finish quite dry at 1.75P, so I do everything I can to encourage complete fermentation. My hope is that olive oil will allow a longer shelf life due to less oxidation over time. Let me know if you dig up anything else on the subject. Thanks for your help!

    Leave a comment:


  • Natrat
    replied
    Originally posted by gitchegumee
    " I'm trying to get about 2 ml per 50 m cells."
    Natrat, you mean 2 milligrams per 50 billion cells? Otherwise, your dose is 1,000,000 times what the paper recommends. And you'd be using a whole LOT of olive oil! And what pitching rate are you using?

    I usually pitch one 500g package of fresh dried yeast in 10hl. This is a low pitch of about 2.5E6 cells/ml, but it currently works great for me. I'd love to get rid of oxygen in my worts. I'm considering Stephan's technique of whirlpool with olive oil at 1ml/10hl. This is still higher than Hull's paper, which recommends only 0.1ml for my 2500E9 cells.
    Whoops! Talk about a slip of the finger. I was actually pitching to .0075 mg per million. Which is significantly higher than that paper. But I have been pitching olive oil based on a different set of calculations provided to me by a friend who is a food scientist. With my first generation the slurry was pretty thin, and I ended up putting about 2.0 ml of oil in my yeast. Which is where the mis-think came about (why I shouldn't post using my phone!)

    Also found this:
    The fatty acid composition of olive oil varies widely depending on the cultivar, maturity of the fruit, altitude, climate, and several other factors.

    Oleic Acid (C18:1), a monounsaturated omega-9 fatty acid. It makes up 55 to 83% of olive oil.

    Linoleic Acid (C18:2), a polyunsaturated omega-6 fatty acid that makes up about 3.5 to 21% of olive oil.

    Sounds like the type and brand of olive oil can make a huge difference in dosing rate.
    Yes and no. Much of the research has been done using pure lineoleic acid, and it seems to make little difference. There are a couple of papers from the Brewers' Institute in Poland. I'll see if I can find a link. I am waiting for a lab analysis of my oil...

    OH...and a warning...make sure your olive oil is ASEPTIC! Turns out lots of anaerobic beasties live in there and might wreak havoc on the beer. When I plated the two oils I had at home they came up clean on the standard plates, but when I did the anaerobic plates, one came up TMTC. I chucked that oil.

    We brewed Gen2 again today. There was far less lag on the OO beer than last time. Might have something to do with the higher counts on the yeast for the second gen.

    Philip, how many gens do you go on your dry yeast? Do you pitch new yeast on each batch, or do you re-pitch slurry? I'm trying to get my head around some of the logistics of brewing where you do...

    Nat

    Leave a comment:


  • gitchegumee
    replied
    Not trying to nitpick natrat,

    " I'm trying to get about 2 ml per 50 m cells."
    Natrat, you mean 2 milligrams per 50 billion cells? Otherwise, your dose is 1,000,000 times what the paper recommends. And you'd be using a whole LOT of olive oil! And what pitching rate are you using?

    I usually pitch one 500g package of fresh dried yeast in 10hl. This is a low pitch of about 2.5E6 cells/ml, but it currently works great for me. I'd love to get rid of oxygen in my worts. I'm considering Stephan's technique of whirlpool with olive oil at 1ml/10hl. This is still higher than Hull's paper, which recommends only 0.1ml for my 2500E9 cells.

    Also found this:
    The fatty acid composition of olive oil varies widely depending on the cultivar, maturity of the fruit, altitude, climate, and several other factors.

    Oleic Acid (C18:1), a monounsaturated omega-9 fatty acid. It makes up 55 to 83% of olive oil.

    Linoleic Acid (C18:2), a polyunsaturated omega-6 fatty acid that makes up about 3.5 to 21% of olive oil.

    Sounds like the type and brand of olive oil can make a huge difference in dosing rate.
    Last edited by gitchegumee; 07-06-2010, 07:32 PM.

    Leave a comment:

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