CO2 use for carbonating 10bbl to 2 volumes

[mmussen]

Since my regulated pressure on the carb stone is about 15, and the combination line loss and stone wetting pressure is about 7 psi, I reason that there remains 8 psi pushing against the 7 psi of initial head pressure, for a net 1psi of CO2 leaving the carb stone and dissolving into the beer. What I think is going to happen is that the beer will absorb the CO2 bubbling thru it until it gets close to equilibrium then the excess CO2 will start to pass thru the saturated beer and raise the tank pressure to about 8 psi before the rotameter stops. Basic level stuff or not, that's not happening for me and I'm hoping someone can point out where I am going wrong in either my logic or technique. Thanks.

Just to eliminate the possibility, Check to make sure your CO2 gauges are reading accurately, I find I have to re calibrate mine every now and again. And also, check to make sure your PRV isn't cracking open early. I've had a few that started letting gas escape at less than the stated pressure.
I'm doing exactly what you are without the rotometer and its working great for me.

[Crosley]

Thanks for the info. I'll read up some more on altitude and give it a shot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[soia1138]

From the Zahm and Nagel website.

Breweries located at higher altitudes conduct their operations in a “thinner” atmosphere. It is therefore necessary to add less CO² to their products, to achieve the same bottled volumes that can be produced by a brewery at sea level. In theory a beer bottles at a high altitude would be flatter, or contain less carbonation, if consumed by a customer at sea level, and vice versa. In actuality these differences are probably not noticeable in most cases.

The question arises whether a high altitude brewer should make gauge corrections on instruments, when making CO² volumes tests. If the pressure gauge is an “open” type, as used by Zahm & Nagel, one that has its dial face and needle exposed to the atmosphere, there is no need for adjustment. If the gauge is glycerin filled or “closed” and was set at sea level, (the manufacturing plant) then some adjustment should be made for use at higher elevations (@2.5 lbs. for every 5000 feet). Also, if a dead weight tester is used to calibrate gauges, some adjustment would have to be made.

Therefore a brewery at higher elevations, using Zahm & Nagel equipment, should make no adjustments in their CO² testing procedures and should use the normal pressure/temperature charts.

If a product is bottled under CO² pressure and tested independently at greatly different altitudes, different reading will be obtained. This assumes that “open” gauges are used at both locations. The reason for this is that the headspace in the container is actually a sample set at whatever elevation it is bottles at.If this container is transferred to a greatly higher or lower altitude, it is actually a separate atmosphere being measured at the new level. This separate atmosphere only enters the bourdon tube of the “open” gauge upon piercing the container, and therefore reads as bottles at the different altitude. Obviously the greater the elevation difference, the greater the volumes difference. (At 10,000 feet, as an extreme, could possibly show a volumes difference of up to 0.4 volumes.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

[soia1138]

http://www.meheen.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05//meheen-carbonation-demystified.pdf

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

[soia1138]

I have a quick question.
I figured out my wetting pressure to be 4. I figured my beer on top to be 1. Which would equal 5. I have ran through the process exactly as mentioned here and I am still light on the carbonation. I am at 10,000ft so I am now wondering if this plays into it. I've read some things that every 1,000ft equals .5psi. Should I figure this into my numbers when looking at a carbonation sheet. For instance, should I use (17psi at 37d = 2.62 volumes, instead of 12psi at 37d = 2.62 volumes)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes your elevation certainty plays into it.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

[Crosley]

I have a quick question.
I figured out my wetting pressure to be 4. I figured my beer on top to be 1. Which would equal 5. I have ran through the process exactly as mentioned here and I am still light on the carbonation. I am at 10,000ft so I am now wondering if this plays into it. I've read some things that every 1,000ft equals .5psi. Should I figure this into my numbers when looking at a carbonation sheet. For instance, should I use (17psi at 37d = 2.62 volumes, instead of 12psi at 37d = 2.62 volumes)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[soia1138]

Since my regulated pressure on the carb stone is about 15, and the combination line loss and stone wetting pressure is about 7 psi, I reason that there remains 8 psi pushing against the 7 psi of initial head pressure, for a net 1psi of CO2 leaving the carb stone and dissolving into the beer. What I think is going to happen is that the beer will absorb the CO2 bubbling thru it until it gets close to equilibrium then the excess CO2 will start to pass thru the saturated beer and raise the tank pressure to about 8 psi before the rotameter stops. Basic level stuff or not, that's not happening for me and I'm hoping someone can point out where I am going wrong in either my logic or technique. Thanks.

I would then double check all those numbers, ie; wetting pressures, gauge accuracy, etc. Also most regulators will increase output pressure as you near your target (backpressure on the regulator). Take the rotameter out of the equation, it's just adding confusion, until you get it down. If everything is as you say, then yes you should see those results. The laws of physics don't change which is why I would question the accuracy of all your numbers and techniques. I never use a rotameter but yet my process is very much the same. Wetting pressure 3psi+1psi of beer on top of stone(1psi/28")=4psi. !0psi target means I set head to 9psi, then regulator to 13 to 13.5psi(keeping in mind that the end pressure on the reg will increase to 14 to 14.5 with backpressure). You can hear slow flow when set like this. Do this only while you are present and after the process is down you can go home and come in the next morning to a nicely carbonated tank.

I basically just repeated myself and others because as I said earlier this information is here in this thread and others.

[GreatLife]

It's been explained numerous times in this thread and others and honestly is pretty basic level stuff. The rotameter means nothing. It's only an indicator of flow. If your regulated pressure is greater than the head pressure then what do you think is going to happen? Read back through the entire thread and other ones that deal with this same topic. Good luck.

Since my regulated pressure on the carb stone is about 15, and the combination line loss and stone wetting pressure is about 7 psi, I reason that there remains 8 psi pushing against the 7 psi of initial head pressure, for a net 1psi of CO2 leaving the carb stone and dissolving into the beer. What I think is going to happen is that the beer will absorb the CO2 bubbling thru it until it gets close to equilibrium then the excess CO2 will start to pass thru the saturated beer and raise the tank pressure to about 8 psi before the rotameter stops. Basic level stuff or not, that's not happening for me and I'm hoping someone can point out where I am going wrong in either my logic or technique. Thanks.

[soia1138]

It's been explained numerous times in this thread and others and honestly is pretty basic level stuff. The rotameter means nothing. It's only an indicator of flow. If your regulated pressure is greater than the head pressure then what do you think is going to happen? Read back through the entire thread and other ones that deal with this same topic. Good luck.

[skelley]

I can not but this seems to be the problems. Either you blow through and raise head space pressure before carbonation complete and/or the flow continues. It seem that if the rotometer was sensative enough that you produce your flow at the lowest possible pressure on the regulator to the stone at a given head pressure the flow would stop as you bleed through and increase head pressure. I do not get it either. Maybe the rotometer is not sensative enough to show flow as soon as it occurs??? Thanks to anyone who can explain this but it seems at least a couple of us can not get this method to work as stated in this thread.

[GreatLife]

Need some advice with this method....

Once transfer is complete, I raise the head pressure on the receiving tank (quickly) to saturation pressure at the carbonation level I want at that temperature. Then start carbonation slowly through a rotameter. Carbonation is done when the head pressure rises a tad and the rotameter slows to a trickle. I can carbonate 10hl in 3-5 hours this way. 20hl takes a bit longer and I let it go slowly over night. This is done without excess CO2, and with using the maximum amount of "natural" CO2.

I'd like to use the method above but it's not working well for me. I CO2 purge the brite tank, leave no pressure in it, transfer beer and chill to 32. Once it reaches temp, I use one CO2 line and regulator coming in thru the CIP port to set the desired end head pressure for that temp: say, 7 psi for 2.5 volumes at 32 degrees. The other regulator and line comes in thru the bottom diffuser via the rotameter you suggested. I start with 0 pressure on the diffuser regulator then slowly increase until the rotameter ball stabilizes at 3 (in this case that's about 15psi). My expectation at this point is for the rotameter to slowly drop from 3 to zero indicating that the beer has absorbed all the CO2 it can at that temp and at a head pressure of 7. What is actually happening is that the head pressure continues rising (from 7 to almost 10 this morning after a couple hours). I slowly bleed off the excess head pressure to continue carbing thru the diffuser but this seems counter to your original instructions.

Can anyone point out where I'm going wrong? All advice welcome and appreciated. Thanks!

[skelley]

Wetting pressure is the pressure to produce and flow while in a shallow bucket of fluid vs good flow? Not sure. Although it has always taken 30 psi to get the flow meter to move. Maybe the problem is insensitivity of flow meter but I think wetting pressure plus head pressure plus column pressure of beer and pressure of the pressure release valve approaches 30 psi. No matter the number I do not get any flow until 30 psi and that is where I leave my regulator.

[soia1138]

Sorry
My head pressure is at 13 psi when regulator at 30 psi to get any flow

That is the reason then. With a regulator at 30psi of course you will blow through a 13psi head. You need to know the wetting pressure of your stone ie, the pressure needed without any meter to get flow through the stone. If your stone is clogged and that is why you need 30 psi to get flow through it then that should be fixed. All that aside with 30psi on the regulator you can not leave it unattended, as you will blow past your head pressure everytime and over carb the batch.

[skelley]

Sorry
My head pressure is at 13 psi when regulator at 30 psi to get any flow

[skelley]

I can not get flow until my regulator pressure is at 30 psi. Therefore my wetting pressure of my stone is quite high. It has been since first use so I do not think it is about clogging. My head pressure begins to rise within 15 minutes. There is no way my beer is carbed appropriately. Also if head pressure rises in should put back pressure on my stone and stop it. At least that is what seems logically as long as I am working right at my minimum pressure to produce flow. What do I have wrong?