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CO2 use for carbonating 10bbl to 2 volumes

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  • #46
    "Making" or recovering your own CO2 is economically Viable for small brewers now.

    Originally posted by revnatscider View Post
    Sometimes a question isn't answered directly but via discussion and continued thinking, an answer is derived. Thanks to all.

    Interested about "making" CO2, news to me.
    We have just released this system at the 2014 CBC in Denver. It has been received very well and has been operationally tested at a large craft brewing facility in Colorado and they gave their stamp of approval. It has also shown to contribute to the overall profile of the beer through blind taste panels, mostly because of the purity level, 99.95% to be exact. The taste panel was done using supplier co2 through the process then using the Cycle C-10 CO2.

    This system can handle the initial oxygen saturation from fermentation as well, which currently, no other recovery system can do. Another bonus that no other system can offer, is that this system is slightly smaller than a refrigerator. It recovers the CO2 via a main header, strips the aromas, will purify and dry the co2, will liquify it, condense it down and store it in a storage Dewar for reuse. This system, dependent upon application and operational procedures will cut your CO2 purchasing by 75%+. There is also a model available that uses all Allen Bradley controls. Check out the link below. I also attached a photo of the system for your viewing pleasure.

    Cheers,

    http://www.cycleco2.com

    Click image for larger version

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    Landlocked Brewery Consulting
    Skylor Alexander - Beer Slave Extraordinaire
    P:620.640.8306
    www.Facebook.com/Landlockedbreweryconsulting

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    • #47
      Phillip - first off thanks very much for sharing your knowledge and experiences here. We have been using the method you outlined and it works like a charm, although I am curious as to your opinion on our situation - since it almost carbs TOO fast!

      Here is our process (7bbl tanks):
      - We spund to about 10psi for last 1-2* P in FV
      - Crash beer to ~37-38*
      - Transfer to brite
      - Apply appropriate head pressure based on desired final CO2 Volumes (usually set brite to 10-11psi with end game of 12psi for ~2.6 volumes)
      - Set rotameter (the McMaster Carr one) to allow a flow of ~2.5 (half way on it's scale)
      - Wait

      Now we notice that our tank will hit the final PSI and the rotameter will slow, almost stop within a couple of hours tops. Can we be going too fast here, should we scale back the rotameter a bit?? I also notice if I put my ear to the brite during the process I can hear small amounts of rumbling every 20-30 seconds - is this a sign we are blowing the CO2 through the beer too fast?

      We do not have a Zahm...beer tastes fine, never any complaints on carb levels and since we have used this process we get a much tighter/finer carb...I guess we are more surprised at how quick it finishes and want to fine tune our process as much as possible.

      Cheers,

      Shane
      Stubborn Beauty Brewing Company
      Middletown - CT





      Originally posted by gitchegumee View Post
      You do not raise your temperature or change your PRV. Any you most certainly wouldn't vent any CO2--just in case you thought about it. Consult a carbonation chart for your pressure and temperature for your desired carbonation level. For example: Lower your temperature to 37F. Raise the head pressure to 13psi. Throw away your pressure gauge that measures stone pressure--it's almost useless. Begin gentle flow USING A FLOWMETER into the carbonation stone.

      A spunding device will allow you to carbonate naturall--to an extent--for a finer foam.

      When your CO2 flowmeter slows down and your pressure creeps up a tiny bit, you're done. Don't change anything. You may bottle or keg as long as you keep this same head pressure constant.

      The speed of carbonation depends on your stone type, size of tank, and degree of carbonation you start with. For my particular use, I've found that half way on the flowmeter I recommended works well.

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      • #48
        It may be possible that you are carbonating too fast. Two ways to know for sure: 1) your beer doesn't lace properly in the glass. 2) you have a foam ring in your bright when you're finished. Be sure to set your head pressure in your BBT a few psi higher than your fermenter when you transfer to ensure that you do not foam. Otherwise, I think you're on the right track. I can carbonate a 10 bbl BBT in just a few hours. Slowly and gently with no loss of CO2 and no foaming the beer. I'm sure you can too. You will notice a few things going on that confirm the physics of what's going on: you may experience a slight rise in temperature when you carbonate your BBT. That's the carbonation rolling your tank and de-stratifying your contents. You will also notice that the pressure stays the same in the BBT while you carbonate and then rise slightly toward the end. That's the beer taking in CO2 at the higher saturation pressure, then reaching equilibrium and raising the saturation pressure. Once you get what's going on, you'll be able to do this quickly and efficiently. Good luck!
        Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

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        • #49
          Average carb time?

          Originally posted by gitchegumee View Post
          Again, rotameters are made for a certain gas and delivery pressure & temperature. Nothing at all wrong with using a rotameter for air, or N2 or even O2; and at just about any reasonable temperature or pressure. You just have to relate the different gases, temperature and pressure. I currently carbonate 20hl beer at 2C using a 300 l/hr rotameter set to half scale calibrated for air at 4 bar and 20C. Also have used McMaster #5079K64 which is for air from 0.4-5.0 SCFM--also about half scale. Very cheap and easy, but it's been working daily now for 6 years with no issues.
          What is your average carb time with #5079K64? What volume of beer were you carbonating? My install is not going according to plan. I must be doing something wrong! :-(
          Last edited by Greenbushguy; 06-05-2014, 11:29 AM.

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          • #50
            Carbonation time depends on degree to which you need to carbonate, obviously. Many other factors as well. If you spund well and have minimal carbonation in a cold tank with a good stone (and all other factors positive), then you should be able to finish carbonate in a few hours.
            Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

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            • #51
              Most I have learned yet

              Phillip, the information you have provided to the brewing community in this thread is priceless. I am a brewery in planning and thank you very much for providing this valuable knowledge. I think everyone in this string and others that have learned from this informtion owe you deeply. Having mentors like you will continue to make craft brewing the premium choice for consumers. I also want to thank Probrewer for providing a platform of access to Pros like Phillip.

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              • #52
                Sorry to keep bugging you but...

                Originally posted by gitchegumee View Post
                Cheers Woolsocks! Rotameters are a type of flow rate indicator. They do not regulate pressure, although some have a valve to coarsely regulate flow. I rarely use the flow control valve. They are inexpensive and fairly reliable. We don't need super accuracy, just something to show us that we're carbonating at about the rate that we're expecting. The scale on a rotameter is actually a bit irrelevant--most are calibrated for a certain pressure, temperature, and gas type--most likely not what your conditions are. With 10hl tanks of average build, I've had good luck with a cheap unit from McMaster: 5079K64. This unit at about half scale will add one volume of carbonation to my cold beer in a matter of a few hours. Without venting, or otherwise wasting CO2. Install it on the outlet of a good CO2 regulator to be able to adjust carbonation pressure. This pressure will depend on your rotameter, hose and stone resistance as well as head pressure in the tank. So it's also a soft number, but easy to dial in. Using this "isobaric" carbonation technique, you set the carbonation stone flow rate to half scale (with the regulator) with the pressure in the BBT at your final saturation temperature. Any flow into the tank beats this pressure + head pressure + hose & rotameter & stone resistance. The CO2 flow will gradually slow as saturation is reached and the pressure at the CO2 regulator comes to equal the tank pressure. Easy. And yes, you should spund to end up with as much natural carbonation as possible. I target 1 bar final pressure in a 2 bar fermenter--which is about 1.1-1.2P from FG. Most folks only have 1 bar fermenter and it is more tricky. You would be better served with a spunding device on 1 bar fermenters. Spunding point also depends on head space and temperature. So, go out and try it. You'll like it! Cheers!

                I have purchased McMaster - 5079K64 and I'm confused about it's proper usage. You recommended the rotameter with flow control but you say you hardly ever use it. You also say that the flow rate should be set with the regulator. So, should the flow control valve on the rotameter be set wide open? Sorry to keep pestering you about this topic but I'm pretty excited to get this set up and working correctly!

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                • #53
                  Dox: I'm humbled! Thanks for your kind words. It is not totally altruistic however; I do have a vested interest in drinking better beers so I'm all for spreading the word of how to do things better!

                  Greenbushguy: Pressure and flow are related. More pressure induces faster flow rates. You should spend some time thinking hard about what you are trying to do with CO2 gas dynamics and CO2 saturation characteristics. You could crank up the CO2 regulator pressure full-blast and then throttle back the flow meter to a trickle. Problem is that you are likely to overcarbonate if you don't watch the tank pressure very carefully because you have your regulator pressure higher than your required tank pressure. Even at the slow flow rate you have set, you can eventually raise the pressure in your tank to beyond the 1 bar pressure relief device. So you want your regulator pressure as low as practical and still induce the flow rate you require. That way your flow will taper off with a slight increase in tank pressure as you achieve your target carbonation. That make sense?
                  Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

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                  • #54
                    I use plastic conicals...

                    Originally posted by gitchegumee View Post
                    I spund beer in the fermenter at about 1P from FG. I crash to 2C when fermentation is complete and my beer profile is as desired--ie; diacetyl reduced, acetaldehyde reduced, sulfur reduced, etc., and the flavors are where I want them. After crashing to 2C, the beer may be around 10psi, but it won't be saturated with CO2 at this lower temperature--there's not enough time to saturate a tank with a small liquid/gas interface. I set up to transfer to a 2C cold room tank at slightly higher pressure than the fermenter. Balance line to equilibrate pressures at a slightly higher pressure than the beer--just to make sure I don't foam during the transfer. I use a VFD driven pump to make sure that beer flows slowly and gently. Once transfer is complete, I raise the head pressure on the receiving tank (quickly) to saturation pressure at the carbonation level I want at that temperature. Then start carbonation slowly through a rotameter. Carbonation is done when the head pressure rises a tad and the rotameter slows to a trickle. I can carbonate 10hl in 3-5 hours this way. 20hl takes a bit longer and I let it go slowly over night. This is done without excess CO2, and with using the maximum amount of "natural" CO2. Your way seems to use the beer as a conduit to get CO2 into a solution, and then back out of solution just to fill the head space. You can possibly taint the beer with a CO2 bite this way. And you will carbonate much slower just to dissolve the gas into liquid, reliberate it as gas in the head space, and then raise head pressure. The CO2 also picks up volatile aromas along the way and washes them out of solution. And carbonating at a zero head space pressure also slows the transfer of gas compared to carbonating at full saturation pressure. Using higher pressure, the gas is forced into solution quicker, and you can increase the CO2 flow rate substantially without fear of foam. The rotameter also requires almost no adjustment during this "isobaric" carbonation method. It needs less attention, and avoids risk of overcarbonation and overpressurization. Furthermore, quick carbonation also leads to clearing of the beer faster as the carbonation currents won't be rolling the contents of the tank any longer than necessary. For me that's important because my beer drops bright in the serving tank a few days after carbonation. I don't know why this isn't standard practice everywhere (except of course with the use of open fermenters). I'm open to hear why this isn't the best practice possible. Hope this helps.
                    I use plastic conical fermenters which as you probably know, aren't exactly "airtight" and therefore do no really hold pressure. I just purchased a brite tank, and naturally, as a novice, this is one piece of equipment in the brewing process that is completely foreign to me, so please forgive me if I sound like a complete moron :-) But, I'm a visual learner so this is presenting a bit of a challenge to read and then visualize (please bear with me!)

                    So I was wondering if you might advise me on how my process/set-up should be? I have not yet attempted to use my brite tank since I am still trying to figure out what parts I'm missing in order to be successful on the first try :-) The only difference in my set up as opposed to yours is that I would not be transferring from fermenter through filter into brite tank under pressure (just draining from plastic conical -> into pump ->through filter -> into brite tank. Also, since my cold space is the size of a closet, there is only enough room for my brite tank, so I will be cold crashing in the tank as opposed to in the fermenter. From there, I believe the process would be the same as yours, correct? Or am I missing something....?

                    One more thing, if you'd be so kind: And feel free to speak to me like I'm an idiot here...because despite reading through and trying to understand this ENTIRE thread multiple times, I'm still not quite certain of what my set-up should look like on the brite tank. Let's start with the top (head pressure)...I've got 2 1/4 inch NPT ports on top (and a PRV good to 15 PSI). I'll need one port for gas in to create head pressure, and I'm guessing I'll need the other port for a pressure gauge so I know how much head space pressure is going in? (Correct me if I am wrong there.) Now, for the gas in the bottom/carb stone...how should the set up look starting from the CO2 tank? I'm guessing it should go from the CO2 tank -> check valve -> rotameter -> carb stone? Is this correct? (I sure wish there was a way to draw up a rough sketch on here so I could see what you are talking about!)

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                    • #55
                      CO2 to brite tank carb stone

                      I am currently configuring my brite tanks and my thinking is I want to go CO2 tank ->regulator -> rotameter ->ball valve (for shut off when not carbonating) ->check valve -> carb stone. That way the check valve protects the rotameter from beer flooding it.

                      I am looking at this set up which will stay attached to each carb stone. Male quick release fitting -> ball valve -> check valve -> carb stone. Then the hose coming from the CO2 regulator would be rotameter -> female quick release fitting. Does this sound reasonable or is it overkill?

                      Cheers,
                      Kevin

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                      • #56
                        Kevin has it!

                        That setup is nearly exactly what I would recommend. One small change: Tee your CO2 at the regulator and add another line with another female quick-connect. Use this line to maintain pressure on your BBT through a male quick connect on your CIP arm (GW Kent sells those). Valve each of these lines to be able to select which one you're using. This way you don't need any tools to do your job--Tools are for repairs and I don't believe you should need them to brew beer. Good luck!
                        Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

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                        • #57
                          gitchegumee, in the setup above, once head pressure is set, do you close that valve and only feed CO2 in through the carb stone from that point on?

                          Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Dox View Post
                            Phillip, the information you have provided to the brewing community in this thread is priceless. I am a brewery in planning and thank you very much for providing this valuable knowledge. I think everyone in this string and others that have learned from this informtion owe you deeply. Having mentors like you will continue to make craft brewing the premium choice for consumers. I also want to thank Probrewer for providing a platform of access to Pros like Phillip.
                            I second this. I also have a brewery in planning and have found you to be a wealth of valuable information, and you share it freely.

                            Thank you!

                            Cheers,
                            --
                            Don
                            Idyllwild Brewing Company

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                            • #59
                              Yes.

                              Thank you Don! Happy to help make better beer.
                              "tincannon", Yes. Set your head pressure to the saturation pressure of the carbonation you want. Usually about 13 psi at 38F. Once this saturation pressure is applied to the beer, the carbonation flows gently into the beer until oversaturated--at which point you will notice a slight rise in pressure. Means your beer is saturated. Everything gently and slowly to get the finest carbonation and lacing possible. Also helps to keep fully carbonated beer in the tank for a few days to allow carbonation to "bind" to the beer. Something that "natural" carbonation helps with too. Spund appropriately and you will see better head characteristics.
                              Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by gitchegumee View Post
                                Thank you Don! Happy to help make better beer.
                                "tincannon", Yes. Set your head pressure to the saturation pressure of the carbonation you want. Usually about 13 psi at 38F. Once this saturation pressure is applied to the beer, the carbonation flows gently into the beer until oversaturated--at which point you will notice a slight rise in pressure. Means your beer is saturated. Everything gently and slowly to get the finest carbonation and lacing possible. Also helps to keep fully carbonated beer in the tank for a few days to allow carbonation to "bind" to the beer. Something that "natural" carbonation helps with too. Spund appropriately and you will see better head characteristics.
                                Homebrewer here, hopefully soon to be licensed for bigger stuff (1 or 2 bbl, but still...) What would be wrong, with a 1- or 2-bbl brite, with just setting the head pressure to 12 or 13psi with the beer stored in a walk-in cooler, and leaving it to gently carbonate over a week or two or three? In other words, just forget about fast carbonation with a stone, and let it take its time. This is what I do with 5-gal and 15-gal kegs in my current setup... Any downside other than how long it will take?

                                Red

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