CO2 use for carbonating 10bbl to 2 volumes

[soia1138]

Since my regulated pressure on the carb stone is about 15, and the combination line loss and stone wetting pressure is about 7 psi, I reason that there remains 8 psi pushing against the 7 psi of initial head pressure, for a net 1psi of CO2 leaving the carb stone and dissolving into the beer. What I think is going to happen is that the beer will absorb the CO2 bubbling thru it until it gets close to equilibrium then the excess CO2 will start to pass thru the saturated beer and raise the tank pressure to about 8 psi before the rotameter stops. Basic level stuff or not, that's not happening for me and I'm hoping someone can point out where I am going wrong in either my logic or technique. Thanks.

I would then double check all those numbers, ie; wetting pressures, gauge accuracy, etc. Also most regulators will increase output pressure as you near your target (backpressure on the regulator). Take the rotameter out of the equation, it's just adding confusion, until you get it down. If everything is as you say, then yes you should see those results. The laws of physics don't change which is why I would question the accuracy of all your numbers and techniques. I never use a rotameter but yet my process is very much the same. Wetting pressure 3psi+1psi of beer on top of stone(1psi/28")=4psi. !0psi target means I set head to 9psi, then regulator to 13 to 13.5psi(keeping in mind that the end pressure on the reg will increase to 14 to 14.5 with backpressure). You can hear slow flow when set like this. Do this only while you are present and after the process is down you can go home and come in the next morning to a nicely carbonated tank.

I basically just repeated myself and others because as I said earlier this information is here in this thread and others.

[Crosley]

I have a quick question.
I figured out my wetting pressure to be 4. I figured my beer on top to be 1. Which would equal 5. I have ran through the process exactly as mentioned here and I am still light on the carbonation. I am at 10,000ft so I am now wondering if this plays into it. I've read some things that every 1,000ft equals .5psi. Should I figure this into my numbers when looking at a carbonation sheet. For instance, should I use (17psi at 37d = 2.62 volumes, instead of 12psi at 37d = 2.62 volumes)


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[soia1138]

I have a quick question.
I figured out my wetting pressure to be 4. I figured my beer on top to be 1. Which would equal 5. I have ran through the process exactly as mentioned here and I am still light on the carbonation. I am at 10,000ft so I am now wondering if this plays into it. I've read some things that every 1,000ft equals .5psi. Should I figure this into my numbers when looking at a carbonation sheet. For instance, should I use (17psi at 37d = 2.62 volumes, instead of 12psi at 37d = 2.62 volumes)


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Yes your elevation certainty plays into it.

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[soia1138]

http://www.meheen.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05//meheen-carbonation-demystified.pdf

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[soia1138]

From the Zahm and Nagel website.

Breweries located at higher altitudes conduct their operations in a “thinner” atmosphere. It is therefore necessary to add less CO² to their products, to achieve the same bottled volumes that can be produced by a brewery at sea level. In theory a beer bottles at a high altitude would be flatter, or contain less carbonation, if consumed by a customer at sea level, and vice versa. In actuality these differences are probably not noticeable in most cases.

The question arises whether a high altitude brewer should make gauge corrections on instruments, when making CO² volumes tests. If the pressure gauge is an “open” type, as used by Zahm & Nagel, one that has its dial face and needle exposed to the atmosphere, there is no need for adjustment. If the gauge is glycerin filled or “closed” and was set at sea level, (the manufacturing plant) then some adjustment should be made for use at higher elevations (@2.5 lbs. for every 5000 feet). Also, if a dead weight tester is used to calibrate gauges, some adjustment would have to be made.

Therefore a brewery at higher elevations, using Zahm & Nagel equipment, should make no adjustments in their CO² testing procedures and should use the normal pressure/temperature charts.

If a product is bottled under CO² pressure and tested independently at greatly different altitudes, different reading will be obtained. This assumes that “open” gauges are used at both locations. The reason for this is that the headspace in the container is actually a sample set at whatever elevation it is bottles at.If this container is transferred to a greatly higher or lower altitude, it is actually a separate atmosphere being measured at the new level. This separate atmosphere only enters the bourdon tube of the “open” gauge upon piercing the container, and therefore reads as bottles at the different altitude. Obviously the greater the elevation difference, the greater the volumes difference. (At 10,000 feet, as an extreme, could possibly show a volumes difference of up to 0.4 volumes.

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[Crosley]

Thanks for the info. I'll read up some more on altitude and give it a shot.


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[mmussen]

Since my regulated pressure on the carb stone is about 15, and the combination line loss and stone wetting pressure is about 7 psi, I reason that there remains 8 psi pushing against the 7 psi of initial head pressure, for a net 1psi of CO2 leaving the carb stone and dissolving into the beer. What I think is going to happen is that the beer will absorb the CO2 bubbling thru it until it gets close to equilibrium then the excess CO2 will start to pass thru the saturated beer and raise the tank pressure to about 8 psi before the rotameter stops. Basic level stuff or not, that's not happening for me and I'm hoping someone can point out where I am going wrong in either my logic or technique. Thanks.

Just to eliminate the possibility, Check to make sure your CO2 gauges are reading accurately, I find I have to re calibrate mine every now and again. And also, check to make sure your PRV isn't cracking open early. I've had a few that started letting gas escape at less than the stated pressure.
I'm doing exactly what you are without the rotometer and its working great for me.

[skelley]

It may be very basic and I agree that it is. But we have at least two of us having trouble getting the rotometer to stop flow. All I can figure is that is is requiring too much pressure to show me flow (ie, more pressure than it is actually taking). I am thinking the ball of the flow meter may be stuck at bottom causing me to increase pressure of my regulator higher than I really need to to overcome the cumulative resistences (beer, atmospheric, and stone/tubing). Technically you should not even need to know any of these resistences to set the regulator pressure to stone. You should only have to start to increase pressure very slowly until flow starts (as indicated on the rotometer) but this assumes the rotometer with sensitivity. So maybe those of us struggling are not struggling due to a lack of getting it but due to a insensitve rotometer. Is that a possibility??

[soia1138]

If you continue to refuse to solve the issues then the issues will persist. TAKE THE ROTAMETER OUT OF THE EQUATION. This is about pressure not flow, rotameters show flow and nothing more. If you feel you don't need to know the factors involved such as stone wetting pressure, static head pressure, regulator accuracy... etc, then good luck to you. Beer is science, not a guessing game.

[brewbot]

Hmm

Hmmm...head scratch, head scratch

Temperature should be close to 2C (like 35ish)...i like it even colder personally.
Head pressure around 12psi.
Wetting pressure on any stone that i've used is typically 2-4psi, lets say 4psi.
water column (beer) height, for every 27" add 1 psi.
My tanks are 200" tall from the stone port, so that's another 7 or 8 psi, lets say 8psi.

So for any gas to pass thru the stone you need 10+4+8 = 22psi
you can get fancy and factor in density of beer as well.
A 1.7P beer is a bit (a little bit) different than a 5.2P beer (may need to add 0.5-1psi more)

So now look at your chart and see where you want to be...2.7vols, ok?
At 35F, 12 psi gets you 2.73vols. ok

So you need to set the regulator at approximately 12psi + 22psi = 34psi

Using a Rotometer is helpful, useful, instructive, simple, cheap.
when it stops moving, you're pretty close...i'll take my first Zahm reading at 8 hours and its usually spot on.

People who vent their tanks really just don't understand...take the blinders off!
I'm so lucky I got to learn it right the first time...it's so difficult un-learning bad habits.

This must be the longest thread on Probrewer...can anybody verify that?
Is there a way to view or sort threads based on the length/replies/view/comments?

[skelley]

If you continue to refuse to solve the issues then the issues will persist. TAKE THE ROTAMETER OUT OF THE EQUATION. This is about pressure not flow, rotameters show flow and nothing more. If you feel you don't need to know the factors involved such as stone wetting pressure, static head pressure, regulator accuracy... etc, then good luck to you. Beer is science, not a guessing game.

So now this is full circle since earlier in the thread it was stated to forget pressure as its about flow and this thread put the rotometer in the equation. You can do it either way if all equipment is working right. That is my point. This is not a struggle with the concept but what in the equation could be the problem such that flow does not stop and overcarbonation results.

[soia1138]

So now this is full circle since earlier in the thread it was stated to forget pressure as its about flow and this thread put the rotometer in the equation. You can do it either way if all equipment is working right. That is my point. This is not a struggle with the concept but what in the equation could be the problem such that flow does not stop and overcarbonation results.

It was never stated to forget pressure. Pressure is the whole point. The only reason flow comes into this is because gitchegumee prefers a slow gentle flow as opposed to blowing co2 fast and venting. His rotameter only serves as a visual reference and does not control any part of the process. My process is identical to his sans rotameter (I listen to my regulator and can hear that I have a nice slow flow). This is only achieved through knowing all the aforementioned factors. What I have repeatedly stated is to take the flow meter out until you have the process dialed in, then if desired introduce it as a visual aid. The fact that people are having issues with this method has zero to do with the rotameter and everything to do with pressure. The rotameter is only clouding your ability to see the problem. You continuously ask to point to the problem and I have. You are pushing more pressure through the stone and exceeding your target equilibrium. Physics tells us that is the only reason your head pressure continues to rise.

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[skelley]

So I evaluated my wetting pressure of carb stone and found it a bit difficult to define. Flow clearly present at 8psi and nice amount at 9.5 it then increases from there. Interesting and as I suspected my rotometer did not register flow to a level at the 9.5 level. I planned on using this 9.5 as my wetting pressure. So I have 42 inches of beer and a head pressure of 12 with target of 13 psi. I thus set my regulator to 12+1.5+9.5= 23psi. Since my rotometer shows no flow I just let it go overnight. Is that the route people go? I do not have a Zahn. I was thinking of shutting off all gas to the tank and see where it equilibrates to determine where my carbonation is. Is this a reasonable thing to do? How is equibration with no gase flowing going to take in a 7bbl brite?

[soia1138]

If all is on target then you should be able to walk away from that and the flow will naturally stop when you have achieved equilibrium. I would however suggest that until you have it down, that you plan on being there to watch. This is why I suggested taking the rotameter out. You have flow but it doesn't show and you previously increased your pressure until you saw flow on the meter therefore overcarbing.

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[mengler]

Mechanical Carbonation of Beer

Mechanical Carbonation of Beer
http://www.mbaa.com/brewresources/Te...n-of-Beer.aspx