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CO2 use for carbonating 10bbl to 2 volumes

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  • EddylineBrewing
    replied
    Originally posted by gitchegumee View Post
    I've asked this question repeatedly on several threads: why are you venting? Nobody has given me an answer. IMHO It is totally unnecessary and a waste of CO2. Will somebody please tell me why cooling the beer to 2C, setting the head pressure to 1 bar, and then slowly carbonating through a stone WITHOUT VENTING will not work just as fast, if not faster than wasting CO2 and adding just a little bit more to global warming unnecessarily?
    Fully Agree! That is how I carbonate all beers. Venting creates unnecessary foaming that hurts your head retention as well!

    Leave a comment:


  • RobStormBreaker
    replied
    Pictures?

    Originally posted by gitchegumee View Post
    Cheers Woolsocks! Rotameters are a type of flow rate indicator. They do not regulate pressure, although some have a valve to coarsely regulate flow. I rarely use the flow control valve. They are inexpensive and fairly reliable. We don't need super accuracy, just something to show us that we're carbonating at about the rate that we're expecting. The scale on a rotameter is actually a bit irrelevant--most are calibrated for a certain pressure, temperature, and gas type--most likely not what your conditions are. With 10hl tanks of average build, I've had good luck with a cheap unit from McMaster: 5079K64. This unit at about half scale will add one volume of carbonation to my cold beer in a matter of a few hours. Without venting, or otherwise wasting CO2. Install it on the outlet of a good CO2 regulator to be able to adjust carbonation pressure. This pressure will depend on your rotameter, hose and stone resistance as well as head pressure in the tank. So it's also a soft number, but easy to dial in. Using this "isobaric" carbonation technique, you set the carbonation stone flow rate to half scale (with the regulator) with the pressure in the BBT at your final saturation temperature. Any flow into the tank beats this pressure + head pressure + hose & rotameter & stone resistance. The CO2 flow will gradually slow as saturation is reached and the pressure at the CO2 regulator comes to equal the tank pressure. Easy. And yes, you should spund to end up with as much natural carbonation as possible. I target 1 bar final pressure in a 2 bar fermenter--which is about 1.1-1.2P from FG. Most folks only have 1 bar fermenter and it is more tricky. You would be better served with a spunding device on 1 bar fermenters. Spunding point also depends on head space and temperature. So, go out and try it. You'll like it! Cheers!
    Hey philip,
    We started using a rotameter years ago, but we have connected at the tank and often have flow issues. When it works correctly its great. Do you have pictures of how you have your flow meter connected to your Co2 outlet? Thanks

    Leave a comment:


  • StrayDogBrewing
    replied
    Originally posted by gitchegumee View Post
    Sounds right. Try your method knowing what you know now. Only way for you to know for sure is to try it. You may require a bit of tweaking, but only experience will tell you.
    Thanks, I ended up having to go with a higher head pressure in the tank but other than that it worked perfectly. Thanks again for sharing all of this wonderful information in this thread. It is really valuable stuff!

    Leave a comment:


  • H00KY
    replied
    Originally posted by Dheeraj View Post
    What is 1173?
    Looks like the equivalent of 10 barrels in liters.

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  • Dheeraj
    replied
    Originally posted by revnatscider View Post
    I have a smaller 20 lb CO2 cylinder currently but will be stepping up to my 10 bbl brite tank this weekend and need to know if my current cylinder size holds enough to carbonate that much liquid to 2 volumes CO2.

    I know 2 volumes is 3.92 g/L so I could do the math and discover that (3.92*1173) is 4598 grams so a bit over 10 lbs, which is less than my full 20 lb tank. But I plan to vent the top and keep the stone bubbling for rapid carbing. What I don't know is how much CO2 is vented during this process. Double? Five times? Cash is tight so I'm hoping to avoid a 50 lbs tank for $250.

    I could just plan to run out and do an exchange real quick.

    What is 1173?

    Leave a comment:


  • gitchegumee
    replied
    You should try it.

    Sounds right. Try your method knowing what you know now. Only way for you to know for sure is to try it. You may require a bit of tweaking, but only experience will tell you.

    Leave a comment:


  • StrayDogBrewing
    replied
    Method correct?

    Originally posted by gitchegumee View Post
    I spund beer in the fermenter at about 1P from FG. I crash to 2C when fermentation is complete and my beer profile is as desired--ie; diacetyl reduced, acetaldehyde reduced, sulfur reduced, etc., and the flavors are where I want them. After crashing to 2C, the beer may be around 10psi, but it won't be saturated with CO2 at this lower temperature--there's not enough time to saturate a tank with a small liquid/gas interface. I set up to transfer to a 2C cold room tank at slightly higher pressure than the fermenter. Balance line to equilibrate pressures at a slightly higher pressure than the beer--just to make sure I don't foam during the transfer. I use a VFD driven pump to make sure that beer flows slowly and gently. Once transfer is complete, I raise the head pressure on the receiving tank (quickly) to saturation pressure at the carbonation level I want at that temperature. Then start carbonation slowly through a rotameter. Carbonation is done when the head pressure rises a tad and the rotameter slows to a trickle. I can carbonate 10hl in 3-5 hours this way. 20hl takes a bit longer and I let it go slowly over night. This is done without excess CO2, and with using the maximum amount of "natural" CO2. Your way seems to use the beer as a conduit to get CO2 into a solution, and then back out of solution just to fill the head space. You can possibly taint the beer with a CO2 bite this way. And you will carbonate much slower just to dissolve the gas into liquid, reliberate it as gas in the head space, and then raise head pressure. The CO2 also picks up volatile aromas along the way and washes them out of solution. And carbonating at a zero head space pressure also slows the transfer of gas compared to carbonating at full saturation pressure. Using higher pressure, the gas is forced into solution quicker, and you can increase the CO2 flow rate substantially without fear of foam. The rotameter also requires almost no adjustment during this "isobaric" carbonation method. It needs less attention, and avoids risk of overcarbonation and overpressurization. Furthermore, quick carbonation also leads to clearing of the beer faster as the carbonation currents won't be rolling the contents of the tank any longer than necessary. For me that's important because my beer drops bright in the serving tank a few days after carbonation. I don't know why this isn't standard practice everywhere (except of course with the use of open fermenters). I'm open to hear why this isn't the best practice possible. Hope this helps.
    Sorry to revive a really old thread but, I have read through it (and other threads) several times and have learned a lot, thanks! I'm about to carbonate in a unitank for the first time and I want to make sure my understanding of this method is correct.

    I want to carb the current beer to 2.5 volumes. The beer will be at 34 degrees. Looking at a carb chart, I need 10 PSI to achieve this level.

    I have determined my stone wetting pressure to be 5 PSI.

    My plan is to;

    1. Set unitank head pressure to just under my desired saturation point so, I'll set it at 9 PSI.

    2. Set CO2 into carb stone at saturation pressure + wetting pressure so, 15 PSI.

    3. Dial the flow meter in to about half flow.

    4. When the flow meter slows to a trickle and the head pressure rises slightly my beer should be in the ball park of 2.5 volumes?


    Does this seem correct? If not, what should I do differently for this method?

    Thanks!!!

    Leave a comment:


  • dark_s
    replied
    I am buying rotameter and I am wondering what max/min scale it needs to have?
    What is average co2 flow when carbonating?

    Leave a comment:


  • Goatbrewer
    replied
    I have a 5 bbl brew house with both 5 and 10 bbl fermenters. I have a 10 bbl bright tank that I use to carbonate and keg from. I pretty much use the method outlined in this post to carbonate the beer. A 5 bbl batch takes about 4.5 hours to carbonate with a 10 bbl batch is double that time. Last year we were in a tiny facility that only allowed us to do production 3.5 days a week. Our production space turned into the taproom the rest of the week so 3.5 days was all we could operate. We were able to produce a little over 400 bbls in that space with those time constraints. I used 50 lb bottles of co2 exclusively. All of my co2 consumption went to purging and pressurizing the BBT (whenever I did a full caustiic CIP, which is not that often considering I CIP under pressure with acid.), Purging and pressurizing kegs and carbonating beer. CO2 cylinders where I live in eastern Washington State run about $32 each. I spent about $1600 on CO2 last year.

    Leave a comment:


  • tirouj
    replied
    Hi guys,
    I know this thread is a bit old but it is somewhat on topic of an answer I am looking for...

    Can anyone with an established brewery give an estimate of their monthly usage and cost for CO2 for a 5 BBL brewhouse or a 10 BBL brewhouse? Assuming they are brewing once or twice a week. What is the size of your bright tanks? (If you have a bigger system that's fine, I can always extrapolate if I know how often you are brewing)

    Also, what size CO2 tank are you using? How much does it cost to refill the CO2 tanks? Is it compressed air or liquid CO2? Did you buy the tank outright or are you leasing?

    Thank you so much everyone!

    Leave a comment:


  • bdetweiler
    replied
    Adapter for McMaster Carr Flowmeter

    I know I’m late to the game (by years), but just wanted to say thanks for this thread! I purchased the McMaster-Carr flowmeter recommended, and was wondering what adapters people have been using to hook it up in-line after the CO2 regulator. The flowmeter’s instructions say 1/8-27 mnpt, but I’m having trouble finding one with a 1/4” or 5/16” hose adapter on the other end. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

    Leave a comment:


  • Crosley
    replied
    Finally got a Brite - Now time to dial it in

    So I have been trying to follow this method as best I can with a few changes due to trying to carbonate my beer in the uni-tank. Well, I finally got a brite tank and have ran 5 batches through it and still trying to fine tune my process. I really want to get it dialed in enough that its a set it and forget it thing.

    Here's my numbers that my process is based on
    Tank at - 33
    Target vol of - 2.7
    Saturation Point - 11psi
    Elevation Correction (9,000ft) - 4.5psi
    Carb Stone Wetting Pressure - 3psi
    Height above Carb Stone - 3.5ft
    Target Pressure at Rotameter - 21.5

    I just started another carb session this morning. I set the pressure at the carb stone at 21.5 and I set the head pressure in the tank at 14psi. At these two pressures I wasn't getting any flow through the rotameter, so I bled a little bit of pressure off the tank down to 13psi. At this I am getting good flow. I have my rotameter set to flow at scfh. I will leave this overnight and see what it comes out at.

    Do all of these numbers look in the ballpark, anything that anyone sees that looks off.

    Thanks everyone!!

    Leave a comment:


  • GSD341
    replied
    Wow

    I'm sure I'll read this thread many times.

    Leave a comment:


  • gitchegumee
    replied
    That's my mantra

    No reason to vent. Ever. Unless you're decarbonating or correcting an over-pressurization situation. Another thing to look for in a BBT is a pinned sprayball as opposed to threaded. Threaded connection is far more difficult to disassemble. Also get a removable 2 1/2" TC clamp on your ball-to-tank connection so you can remove the sprayball for routine maintenance. Never enter a tank. If you have some slack in the pinned connection, then it will allow CO2 egress and ingress above the sprayball. Allows you to fill your BBT a tiny bit more and add head pressure--without gushing liquid out the CIP arm in the former, and bubbling your liquid as you add head pressure in the latter. Found this out the hard way. I like to get as much out of BBT as possible and don't see any reason for more than 5% freeboard. Should have known to specify.....

    Leave a comment:


  • barleyfreak
    replied
    Originally posted by jonnyseka View Post
    based on the following set up

    CO2 tank ->regulator -> rotameter ->ball valve (for shut off when not carbonating) ->check valve -> carb stone. That way the check valve protects the rotameter from beer flooding it.

    can anyone please post a link for the type of check valve i can use as all the ones i find seem to be for liquid only and not gas

    cheers
    jon
    There's this from gw kent. The check valve I have is part of the entire carb stone assembly from Zahm. There stones are pricey, but top notch, IMO.

    Leave a comment:

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