Brewery Layout - Glycol Chiller/Milling

[goldstein114]

Just put an offer on a space but realized that the specific conditions of the unit are going to be very different than I've worked with before. The rental unit is 4000 sq feet, with 26' tall ceilings, but surrounded by attached units on all sides except for the Front (Entrance and loading dock are in the front). This leaves me with no real ability to have the Glycol chiller outside, nor do I think it's overly feasible to get it onto the roof, not sure how much unnecessary heat I'll create keping both the cold room and the Fermenters cool. This setup also prevents me from creating a grain room with external ventilation, would there be any issue running a mill in the open here with a dust collector attached on?



Sorry about the quality of the sketchup, haven't brought this over to the Engineer/Architect yet, just trying to throw ideas down as I can think of them until someone with far more experience can pretty it up. In the sketch there would be another renter to the left, right, and behind the brewhouse. The building is completely bare right now, with only the Loading Door and Front door set in stone, any better ideas? Suggestions are greatly appreciated.

[BeerBred]

I'm sure soon someone will chime in about the grain mill. Local code might require a separate fireproof room. Other than that, cold room looks way too big for that size system which won't service many retail accounts. You didn't leave much/any room for growth. Quite a bit of wasted space on the left side mid to front, drawing scale may negate that thought. With regard to your comment about keeping fermenters and cold room cold and unnecessary heat, do you mean heat from the chiller?

[TiminOz]

I would leave the chiller in its current location allowing for an easy glycol piping loop. If anything it is better to have it indoors than subject to extreme heat and cold which I assume would be the case in NJ. If you have a quality mill, grist case and auger you should have little or no grain dust to deal with by locating it within the brewery. The dust only becomes an issue in a confined space.

[BeerBred]

That's good info for many of us Tim, thanks.

[mmussen]

Having worked at a couple breweries with an indoor glycol chiller I will warn you that they will put out a LOT of heat. I'm not sure what size chiller you will be needing but I worked at a place that had a 10 ton chiller in an indoor space of about 600 sqft - that room was constantly over 100F, even with the building's AC on. I would recommend making sure you have some sort of exhaust for the heat of the chiller.

[goldstein114]

I'm sure soon someone will chime in about the grain mill. Local code might require a separate fireproof room.

Considering this is the first brewery in the town and only one of a few in the county, I'm more worried about an actual issue of dust build up/explosions than codes that probably don't exist yet. I'm planning on using a dust collector to prevent most of it, but I've definitely had to deal with cleaning dust off the farthest reaches of places I've worked at before (these didn't have collectors so I can't really compare)

Other than that, cold room looks way too big for that size system which won't service many retail accounts.

I'm figuring at 10 BBL with 60 BBLs in fermentation space I can hit 1500 BBLs annually assuming a turn every 2 weeks, wouldn't mind being wrong and selling more in house but I really doubt I'm ever pushing much more than 250 BBLs annually out of the tasting room (despite it being large). 500sq/ft (aiming for 14 ft height?) was just an estimation for my need, does it really seem like too much?

You didn't leave much/any room for growth.

I left enough space to add 3 more tanks with the Keg Washer/Chemical Pallet moving toward the storage racks. Assuming I add 2 30 bbls and a 30 bbl bright, I'd have enough Fermentation capacity for about 3,000 BBLs annually, not sure I'm pushing any more out of a 10 BBL system. I assume once I'm expanding passed this I'll be leasing an extra 4,000 sq ft unit attached in any direction to this and upgrading the brewhouse size either way.

Quite a bit of wasted space on the left side mid to front, drawing scale may negate that thought. With regard to your comment about keeping fermenters and cold room cold and unnecessary heat, do you mean heat from the chiller?

You're definitely right about that, all I was going to do with that space was overflow tasting room space (hence the second bar attached to the cold room outside the tasting room), and storage area. And yeah, my fear is the heat put out by the glycol chiller, it's one more thing heating a room that will only have fans (albeit large, looking into a Bigassfan) for ventilation.

[jimvgjr]

I'd definitely inquire about doing a roof mounted chiller system, unless you have floors above you- this would be the best solution (without any outside, ground level, options). Located directly over the cellar would minimize piping, and eliminate the heat issue. Could also look at doing a split system, with glycol tank and pumps in the brewery and with the refrigeration unit located on the roof- will add some installation costs but would eliminate the heat issue.

If roof mount isn't feasible, understanding it'd require additional glycol piping, could you consider locating chiller system inside, near the front of the building? Perhaps next to the loading dock door? This would give you ability to install louvred panels or exhaust fan out the front? As mentioned before, the heat generated will be more than you anticipate and something that I'd definitely try to avoid.

Good Luck,

Jim

Pro Chiller Systems
jimvgjr@prorefrigeration.com

[goldstein114]

I'd definitely inquire about doing a roof mounted chiller system, unless you have floors above you- this would be the best solution (without any outside, ground level, options). Located directly over the cellar would minimize piping, and eliminate the heat issue. Could also look at doing a split system, with glycol tank and pumps in the brewery and with the refrigeration unit located on the roof- will add some installation costs but would eliminate the heat issue.

If roof mount isn't feasible, understanding it'd require additional glycol piping, could you consider locating chiller system inside, near the front of the building? Perhaps next to the loading dock door? This would give you ability to install louvred panels or exhaust fan out the front? As mentioned before, the heat generated will be more than you anticipate and something that I'd definitely try to avoid.

Good Luck,

Jim

Pro Chiller Systems
jimvgjr@prorefrigeration.com

I'll talk over both options with the GC/Architect/Engineer. I've felt the heat off of much larger units and could only imagine how hot even a 5 ton would make the warehouse without true ventilation. Unless I can think of a new way to re-design the layout I'd need to either run the piping nearly 100' each way extra to the front of the building or 26' vertically with the Chiller on the room (plus craning the chiller to the roof).

[BeerBred]

I'm figuring at 10 BBL with 60 BBLs in fermentation space I can hit 1500 BBLs annually assuming a turn every 2 weeks, wouldn't mind being wrong and selling more in house but I really doubt I'm ever pushing much more than 250 BBLs annually out of the tasting room (despite it being large). 500sq/ft (aiming for 14 ft height?) was just an estimation for my need, does it really seem like too much?

With 500' of cooler and a pallet size of 4x4, which is bigger than actual, presuming no laneway for a pallet jack (which is obviously needed) you could store 31 pallets or 372 kegs of beer. While I agree, always build the biggest cooler possible, you have a space issue. If you are going to minimize tap room sales and go for distribution, you have a kettle size to profitability issue. But that's another conversation.

Long narrow buildings can be a bitch. People generally want to see the brewery, and your cooler is in the way. I don't know a thing about this business though... What if you hire an architect that does brewery specific layouts? Or get a plan for a similar shape building from your equipment supplier? Or find a building that doesn't have these limitations?

I respect the enthusiasm, believe me. I've been there. You're going to be married to this place, make sure it's perfect. No one wants to wake up after the wedding and realize they had on beer goggles when they chose their wife.

[goldstein114]

With 500' of cooler and a pallet size of 4x4, which is bigger than actual, presuming no laneway for a pallet jack (which is obviously needed) you could store 31 pallets or 372 kegs of beer. While I agree, always build the biggest cooler possible, you have a space issue. If you are going to minimize tap room sales and go for distribution, you have a kettle size to profitability issue. But that's another conversation.

Long narrow buildings can be a bitch. People generally want to see the brewery, and your cooler is in the way. I don't know a thing about this business though... What if you hire an architect that does brewery specific layouts? Or get a plan for a similar shape building from your equipment supplier? Or find a building that doesn't have these limitations?

I respect the enthusiasm, believe me. I've been there. You're going to be married to this place, make sure it's perfect. No one wants to wake up after the wedding and realize they had on beer goggles when they chose their wife.

Going with the cold room sized so I don't need to upgrade it 3 years down the line when I hopefully have doubled my fermentation capacity. Assuming I can fit 2 sets of 8 pallets, stacking 3 high with a 50/50 split of Sixtels and Halves, that would end up being 172 BBLs, which is definitely larger than I need for a 2 week storage even at max capacity, I'll probably knock it to 400 sq/ft which still allows for about 1 months capacity of storage at 30 BBLs a week (132 BBLs @ 3 high @ 50% 1/6 50% 1/2), and 2 weeks by the time I need a true expansion.

Met with my engineer today so we're playing around a bit with the design, trying to get the tasting room a bit wider as right now I'd have the tasting room 7 feet wider than the cold room, which allows for a decent area to see the brewhouse, but obviously I'd like much more outwardly visible, in the newest version its 10 feet unobstructed view and the plexiglass extends throughout the tasting room toward the warehouse. Really appreciate the suggestions so far, can't wait to show plans that might make more sense when its done in CAD instead of excel.

[Starcat]

HVAC Options

I am an HVACR Master Technician by trade.
You can, with skill...retrofit just about any refrigeration system to a remote condenser so as to get the rejected heat outside the structure.
You just have to determine your location then pipe to it and configure the necessary controls to make it run correctly.
Its best to use a condenser that is designed for this duty.
I would not even think about running a package unit indoors personally.

[beerguy1]

I would leave the chiller in its current location allowing for an easy glycol piping loop. If anything it is better to have it indoors than subject to extreme heat and cold which I assume would be the case in NJ. If you have a quality mill, grist case and auger you should have little or no grain dust to deal with by locating it within the brewery. The dust only becomes an issue in a confined space.

The dust becomes an issue in confined space because it is kept there. That dust in a open room is going to float all over and cause some serious infection issues let alone the respiratory issues it will cause you and the crew so unless you are wanting wild yeast fermentation's you are going to need a large ventilation system and a way to replace that are you are taking out of the room. Preground will help some try this wait till the light comes in a room and dump some grain out and watch how much dust comes off of it.

Good Luck

[OGBrewer76]

I'd first get a materials list together. Once you have that, go talk to your Building and Safety office, the Fire Department, the HazMat guy, etc becuase they'll tell you what code allows and how they interpret that. It'll save you money with the architect and engineer, both of whom are expensive. Since you'll be the first in the county, expect a lot of concerns you'll have to deal with. I know some grain mills release no dust if the lid is closed, and I've seen some that are the exact opposite. I know you can push the heat from the glycol unit outside, but would have to be in a mechanical room of some sort with its own air intake and exhaust. That's what we are doing. So, you may have to relocate your glycol.

Here's some questions:
1) What exactly makes up your 10BBL BH? Is there a HLT? A CLT? Is it DF or steam?
2) You have 26 ft high ceilings. Why not go start with 20BBL tanks and grow into 30BBL tanks?
3) Are you getting a new keg washer or used one? Most new keg washers are on casters and have quick connects, so they really don't need a permanent location. Likewise, chem storage can be between two fermenters.
4) Whats the space between the walk in and pallet storage used for? Could you relocate the glycol there?

[goldstein114]

I'd first get a materials list together. Once you have that, go talk to your Building and Safety office, the Fire Department, the HazMat guy, etc becuase they'll tell you what code allows and how they interpret that. It'll save you money with the architect and engineer, both of whom are expensive. Since you'll be the first in the county, expect a lot of concerns you'll have to deal with. I know some grain mills release no dust if the lid is closed, and I've seen some that are the exact opposite. I know you can push the heat from the glycol unit outside, but would have to be in a mechanical room of some sort with its own air intake and exhaust. That's what we are doing. So, you may have to relocate your glycol.

We're looking into a Mechanical Room at the moment, its either that or an oversized exhaust/make-up air system (most likely both). We've had questions from the Water/Sewage departments but the rest of the local departments seem to smile and nod when we state what we're doing.

1) What exactly makes up your 10BBL BH? Is there a HLT? A CLT? Is it DF or steam?

10 BBL Kettle, 10 BBL Mash Tun, 15 BBL HLT, No CLT, 2x 10 BBL Fermenters, 2x 20 BBL Fermenters, 1x 20 BBL Bright Tank. Direct Fire Kettle, Electric HLT.

2) You have 26 ft high ceilings. Why not go start with 20BBL tanks and grow into 30BBL tanks?

Thats what we're doing, going with the tallest versions of the Fermenters/BBT as well to take whatever advantage of the height we can.

3) Are you getting a new keg washer or used one? Most new keg washers are on casters and have quick connects, so they really don't need a permanent location. Likewise, chem storage can be between two fermenters.

New (Slightly Oversized) Keg Washer, it'll definitely be mobile, but its nice to visualize where its location will be for the most part so I can tie it to drainage and power.

4) Whats the space between the walk in and pallet storage used for? Could you relocate the glycol there?

If I go with a mechanical room for the glycol chiller, it'll probably be relocated there as it would be central to the Fermenters and Cold Room.