3 bbl nano power/gas utility requirements

[TrueNorthAles]

First a general thank you to all the members of this group for the wealth of information present on these boards.

I'm in the process of lease negotiations and though I feel the space and utilities present are appropriate for a 3bbl start up (with future expansion up to a 7bbl) I'd like to hear opinions from the group on power and gas utility requirements. Most importantly, is 3-phase power an absolute necessity?

I will be using a gas brewhouse (either direct fire or fire box) and using small glycol beer line chiller(s) to cool up to 2-3bbl FVs, 1-7bbl FV, and 1-7bbl brite. In addition, I plan up to 2 - 8x10 walk in coolers. A ventilation hood with possible make up air will be required. However, I am unsure if I will be operating a substantial mill or keg washer and I will not have a bottling or canning line of any type.

As the brewery expands, and if needed, I can have 3-phase power brought to the building.

I don't have the exact BTUs of the brewhouse burners, though I would expect both the HLT and BK to have two burners each. What type of gas pressure and pipe size to the building and tanks should I be looking for at a minimum for a 3bbl and a maximum for a 7bbl system?

Thanks again!

[TiminOz]

It is always recommended to have 3 phase power. If you have HVAC then the more amps the better! For a direct fire system you will need 2 flues, 1 for the steam and 1 for the exhaust for the burner. If you were planning on a restaurant style hood you would still need to run a flue for that and you should not try to run steam and exhaust together.


Electrical Supply: 120-240V, 3 phase, 80-100 amps
Gas/propane: 200,000 btu/hr supply
Water: 3/4" - 1" 10-15 gpm filtered water
Air, Oxygen & CO2: as needed

[TrueNorthAles]

3 bbl nano power/gas utility requirements

Thanks TiminOz.....

While I understand 3 phase is recommended, can it be done w single phase?

I've heard varying opinions on this and at the moment 3 phase isn't possible wo serious power upgrades. I'd hate to rule out a great location that has potential to grow and have 3 phase added later.


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[foestauf]

Thanks TiminOz.....

While I understand 3 phase is recommended, can it be done w single phase?

I've heard varying opinions on this and at the moment 3 phase isn't possible wo serious power upgrades. I'd hate to rule out a great location that has potential to grow and have 3 phase added later.


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Yes it can be done all in single phase. The reason this is not recommended is due to the wire size you will have to run out to the equipment is going to be much larger than 3 phase. 3PH is also more efficient for motors but it does not sound like you will have much for motor loads, resistance loads like heating elements are going to draw their rated wattage regardless of 1PH 120, 3PH 208, 3PH 480 etc...
So long story short, yes you can if you really want to. I personally would not do it because once you go to expand everything will be 3PH by default (chillers, AC units, pumps etc) and it can be a real PITA to find this equipment in 1PH and much more expensive to install and operate.

[ChesterBrew]

The power upgrades are worth doing at the start and it may be possible to have the upgrade performed with little to no cost. Our power company upgraded us at no cost. It's worth asking them if you haven't already done so.

[BDL]

3-phase power is a must. finding single phase equipment will be difficult if not impossible especially if you are hoping to find it used or refurbished. Plus the added cost of the increased wire sizing necessary to run everything is significant unless your space is tiny. Re doing it all later will be even more expensive once you have equipment in the way. Set yourself up for success, or you will regret it later. As a wise man has said to me many times before "you could save some money doing it that way, but you could save a lot more by not opening the business at all".

As far as estimating gas pipe sizing and pressure, your pressure is pretty much always dictated by the local utility, and you should really speak with an engineer. Not to say people on here couldn't be helpful in advising, but with the vapid amount of information provided any answer from us would be as helpful as asking a magic eight ball.

[TrueNorthAles]

Thanks for the comments; all are good points and noted. Expansion would definitely require 3phase.

Chester - I believe the utility will bring 3phase to the pole but I'd have to wire it from there. I will verify this.

BDL -touché on the quote from the wise man, it makes sense.

The HLT and BK will have 300,000 Btu burners each. What other information can I supply to help address the gas utility question?


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[jebzter]

Your burners are 300k each, are there any furnaces on the roof? You will need to show your gas company the maximum total load so they can size your meter correctly. Standard gas pressures are 7"-14" W.C., if you need higher pressure, expect to pay some engineering fees to them. You will need a mechanical engineer to make drawings for you with proper gas line sizing for the flow. As for electrical, think everything has been said already, but go with 3 phase, you will regret single phase when it comes to buying wire and conduit. Everything has to be bigger, and everything is less efficient, not to mention its a pain to retrofit things when they are already in place. I know budgets are tight in a startup, but if it can be done, do it, it will save many a headache in the future.