From Grain to bottle.

[Geoff Logan]

Did a search and nothing came up, so here goes. My management and I are having a bit of a disagreement on turnaround times for our beers. I'm on a 15 day cycle for our ales. Here's my schedule: Brewday, 5 days of fermentation, 7 days of chilling/yeast collection, 1 day of filtration, i day of packaging. (Dry hopped beers take longer). Too short? Too long? They are asking for/demanding beer in 10 days or less sometimes. It's like talking to a wall. Thoughts? Thanks in advance.

Geoff Logan
Head Brewer
AleWerks
Williamsburg, VA

Also, anyone else working 6 days a week?

[Moonlight]

Management is reasonable to demand 10 day beer. They are reasonable to ask customers to buy it. Customers are reasonable to stop buying it and force the brewery into bankruptcy.
Merely explain that you could do it, but you value the longevity of their business and your job more than that.
Fifteen is OK, but even more is better.
Hamburgers could be sold if cooked for half the time, too.

[v2comp]

Management is reasonable to demand 10 day beer. They are reasonable to ask customers to buy it. Customers are reasonable to stop buying it and force the brewery into bankruptcy.
Merely explain that you could do it, but you value the longevity of their business and your job more than that.
Fifteen is OK, but even more is better.
Hamburgers could be sold if cooked for half the time, too.

WORD!
sounds like time to expand to me, instead of speeding up a process that benefits from a little more time to make it great instead of just O. K.
We have a local brewpub that sometimes turns out a stout in like 7 days and they dont understand why it takes so long to sell.

[MPKill]

I'm with v2comp

Have them buy you some more fermenters to keep up with demand! We're looking to part with some of our 20bbl tanks. Just a thought!

Seriously, 10 days is pretty quick. I've got some nice materials from my classes that talk about maturation times and the effect on green beer flavors. Maybe you should borrow them. There is a difference between fresh beer and green beer.


Mike Killelea
Legend Brewing Company
Richmond, Virginia

[South County]

sounds spot on

15 days sounds just about right in a well manage throughput and yes tack on a few says to dry hop. This is definitely not a less is more scenario, I like my steak medium well, not my beer. If they want more turn-around tell them, "Daddy needs some new tanks!"

[gitchegumee]

If this is a standard 4-5% ale, then I think that 15 days to ferment, condition, filter, and package is already quick. I take longer on all my ales. Sounds like your boss is victim of the equipment manufacturer's propaganda. Remember those quick calculations that the equipment manufacturers used to advertise that showed how quick four fermenters and a few cents of grain could make you a millionaire? 10 days would be unreasonable, in my opinion. Instead of choking the chicken that layed the golden egg trying to squeeze out more, perhaps they should either get more tanks or charge more money for what you can make in a reasonable amount of time. Meeting the supply-demand sweet-spot in the curve by making an inferior product is, IMHO, the absolute worst way to go about it. Good luck!

[kai]

If this is a standard 4-5% ale, then I think that 15 days to ferment, condition, filter, and package is already quick. I take longer on all my ales. Sounds like your boss is victim of the equipment manufacturer's propaganda. Remember those quick calculations that the equipment manufacturers used to advertise that showed how quick four fermenters and a few cents of grain could make you a millionaire? 10 days would be unreasonable, in my opinion. Instead of choking the chicken that layed the golden egg trying to squeeze out more, perhaps they should either get more tanks or charge more money for what you can make in a reasonable amount of time. Meeting the supply-demand sweet-spot in the curve by making an inferior product is, IMHO, the absolute worst way to go about it. Good luck!

I disagree, for a 4-5% ale 15 days sounds like luxury. Of course, it depends on your yeast and how good your filter is but 7 days on chill sounds like more than enough to me for any but the most extremely non-flocculent yeast. And also more than enough time for conditioning. IMHO with the right beer and the right yeast you could bang out two batches in 15 days without compromising quality in any way.

[liammckenna]

Many if not most ales should be served fresh fruity and young.

Your cycle time will depend on a lot of things (yeast strain, water chemistry, fermentation temp, pitching wolume, aeration level of wort, etc). Every brewery will be different.

I have produced many 10 day ales in my career with little or no issue.

I would suggest a cautious approach. Perhaps shave a day off, evaluate, move forward. If you note no problem, try shaving another day.

Don't let dogmatism hold you back from progress. Don't draw arbitrary lines in the sand with you employers based on what you've read written in a book somewhere once. Reality can be much more dynamic.

[beermkr]

Sorry Geoff... I guess this is my fault...

When I first was putting that place together 10 days was what I looked at for sizing. In reality 15 or more is probably better. That is why we shifted to a 14 day turnaround on all the scheduling. Even at that rate though you should get 175bbls a month out of that system.

Tell Chuck that 15 days is fine and I said so

My work week varies out here... but then sometimes I am bartending or doing other strange non-brewing related jobs (comes with the territory, we have to have firewood you know!).

[Woolsocks]

Shave a couple days

15 days is reasonable in my book, but I think, depending on your yeast strains and other recipe parameters, you might be able to cut a couple days off your process.

Maturation, diacetyl cleanup, etc. is faster at warm temps than cold. You could hold the beer warm, perhaps even warmer than your fermentation temp, for a couple extra days and then reduce your cold conditioning time. You might need a more robust filter to handle the extra yeast load, but that's probably better than buying more tanks. My schedule looks something like this:

brew day
4 days of rip-roaring fermentation
2 days of slow fermentation, diacetyl reduction, etc.
1 day of cooling
3 days of cold conditioning
1 day of filtering
2 days of tank carbonating

Grain to glass in under 2 weeks.

[Geoff Logan]

Thanks for the replies. I've since been approved for the 15 day cycle. However, let's dig a little deeper. Here's a more detailed schedule for my red ale:
1-Brewday
2-Primary Fermentation
3-
4-
5-
6- Slowed ferm.
7- Drop temp to 60 Farenheit. (D-rest/Cleanup)
8- Drop temp to 40 Far. (Drop temp 20/day as to not shock yeast)
9- Drop temp to 33 Far.
10- Chill
11-
12- Collect/Drop Yeast
13- Primary Filtration
14- Secondary Filtration/Carb.
15- Package
I'd love to have at least 2 days for Carbonation. Thoughts? Thanks again.

Geoff

[Woolsocks]

Mmm... that makes a lot of sense. If you could combine primary and secondary filtration (DE filter followed by inline cartridge) and then inject CO2 inline post-filter, that would save a couple days.

[Woolsocks]

Other thing I see is I'd leave the temp alone on day 7, maybe even raise it, and then crash it as fast as possible. VDK rest will happen faster at warmer temps, and I understand that cold conditioning works better when you cool it faster. That might eliminate another couple days.

[Graydon]

ale schedule

Geoff,

What you are doing is very good and as others here have said cutting more than one or two days from this schedule would lead to inferrior product. There are many ways to improve production. Your owners need to hire an experienced consultant to review all of the brewery operations, and then implement the required changes. If you are maxed out on your production either there is profit, the money is going the wrong places, or something? I have done this kind of work for Ska, Mammoth, and Ukiah brewing. Tell your owners I would be glad discuss their options.

Graydon Brown
Brewmaster
Golden Hills Brewing Co.
live2brew@yahoo.com

[kai]

Thanks for the replies. I've since been approved for the 15 day cycle. However, let's dig a little deeper. Here's a more detailed schedule for my red ale:
1-Brewday
2-Primary Fermentation
3-
4-
5-
6- Slowed ferm.
7- Drop temp to 60 Farenheit. (D-rest/Cleanup)
8- Drop temp to 40 Far. (Drop temp 20/day as to not shock yeast)
9- Drop temp to 33 Far.
10- Chill
11-
12- Collect/Drop Yeast
13- Primary Filtration
14- Secondary Filtration/Carb.
15- Package
I'd love to have at least 2 days for Carbonation. Thoughts? Thanks again.

Geoff

See, I'd be letting the temp increase near the end of the ferment for VDK rest and cleanup and dropping the temp straight to zero after. Do you notice any detriment to flavour if you chill too fast?