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  • #16
    [QUOTE=kai]See, I'd be letting the temp increase near the end of the ferment for VDK rest and cleanup and dropping the temp straight to zero after. Do you notice any detriment to flavour if you chill too fast?[/Q

    I chill 20 Degrees per day as to not shock my yeast. Anyone else do this?

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    • #17
      My tanks crash as fast as my cooling system allows.

      What exactly are you worried about by cold 'shocking' your yeast? I can think of no detrimental physiological effect. Interested in others comments here.

      Pax.

      Liam
      Liam McKenna
      www.yellowbellybrewery.com

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by liammckenna
        My tanks crash as fast as my cooling system allows.

        What exactly are you worried about by cold 'shocking' your yeast? I can think of no detrimental physiological effect. Interested in others comments here.

        Pax.

        Liam
        After doing it both ways, I never saw a difference in yeast vitality, but my crash cooled beers tended to clear better, faster. My conical fermenters lacked racking ports and we didn't filter the beer, so good sedimentation was very important. The gold ale we served was a 12 day beer if I really pushed things. We never served cloudy beer (excepting of course wheats)

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        • #19
          Originally posted by liammckenna
          My tanks crash as fast as my cooling system allows.

          What exactly are you worried about by cold 'shocking' your yeast? I can think of no detrimental physiological effect. Interested in others comments here.
          Liam, I've been told/read about this. I think it's often recited out of context. If you work with yeast a lot, you will see that thermal shocks can definitely have some undesirable effects during pitching and in propagating and reproducing yeast. Increases in petite mutation, reduced viability, etc. It's not an old wives' tale.

          But here, there is virtually no reproduction going on, and from what I've experienced, the issues during pitching/propagation/growth start to occur in the neighbourhood of 20F/10C change per quarter hour. You *will* see effects from that sort of thermal shock, no question.

          But crashing is a different situation. Indeed, the whole idea is to provide a bit of a nudge. I have never encountered or even been told of a problem from crashing too fast. Too early, certainly, but not too fast.

          Comment


          • #20
            Hey,

            I agree with Kai (strange that as we sort of work together - If I've guessed the right Kai....)

            I think an ale could be ready to go in 9-10days and yes, perhaps tack a couple of days on for dryhopping.

            So I think 15days is a luxury and I would be trying to systematically shave back cycles. It is easy to say "buy more tanks" but is not so easy to find the money and justify the business case sometimes. I think it is right for management to ask for more; just don't do anything crazy and just go step by step. Isn't necessity is the mother of invention? (And I know it can also be the mother of all #&*@ ups....)

            We keep a pretty close eye on our cycle times as a heap of beer sitting in tank is in effect $$$ tied up - ever hear about "going broke making a profit"? Business is all about cash flow.....

            Cheers,

            Alex

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            • #21
              unfiltered

              In the unfiltered world, I've been able to have a beer ready in 9 days....I'm not proud of that fact however, but the final beer - a stout was very drinkable. My thought is that for extreme taste beers such as a stout (and dark at that so no one can see haze), it is doable. For a standard pale ale, I'd wager against, and for a standard lager - 3 weeks minimum.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Sulfur
                In the unfiltered world, I've been able to have a beer ready in 9 days....I'm not proud of that fact however, but the final beer - a stout was very drinkable. My thought is that for extreme taste beers such as a stout (and dark at that so no one can see haze), it is doable. For a standard pale ale, I'd wager against, and for a standard lager - 3 weeks minimum.
                Sulfur mentions "the unfiltered world" & dark beers & yes, I've made perfectly drinkable cask ales (even golden ones have been 'star bright' on dispense) & well within the 15 days time, but Geoff is talking about filtered beer - I thought for shelf life stability (i.e. haze) that you would need more time & for the beer to be at or below 0degC? (Geoff mentions quite a slow cooling process, over the 7 days)

                (plus depending on the beer, temp & time it might also benefit from PVPP treatment?)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Mmm, right. PVPP would also be a way to cut some time off.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    And what about finings? If it were crashed and then immediately fined (I've had great results with Kerry Biofine Clear) then filtered through something that includes PVPP, that'd be a clear beer and speedy too.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I dont know that I would be worried about the 60 degree day. Like others have said, VDK is driven off at higher temps so you should not be having that problem. I am assuming you are still using the same yeast as when I left so it should be pretty neutral.

                      I would crash cool also. You are trying to get everything to settle out. Also your pitching rate will seriously affect primary fermentation speed. If you are counting I would up your pitch rate a little to promote a more vigourous fermentation. And up your initial pitch to 3 boxes.

                      Also I have been finding lately that capping my fermentation and doing some slight carbonation in the tank promotes better settling. And dropping the yeast regularly off the bottom of the tank.

                      R/
                      Mike Pensinger
                      General Manager/Brewmaster
                      Parkway Brewing Company
                      Salem, VA

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        it can be done and then some...

                        In Germany right now lagers are being fermented in 3 days and Packaged in 3 more days so 6 in all. I have put out Alt in 5 days on regular basis in Germany. So if your reading the age old brewing concepts that say it can't be done without making bad beer is an age old belief..
                        Now to contradict what I said and to what I do and practice now at my own Brewery. Kai is right on with schedule and the right yeast for the job. I prefer an old Bavarian Yeast for my Bottle conditioned Kellerbier. It could not and can not be rushed do to the fact of the amount of sulfur produced. I love that aspect of it and why I use it. 6 weeks minimum for that one.
                        At the same time I oversee a Old Guard Brewery that we are putting out Lagers in 12-18 days with nothing but, an increase in customer positive feedback on beer quality. We'll ferment under pressure at 60 degrees and test for Diacetyl. When we get the D in to Spec we centrifuge and cool the beer and send to Rough Storage for 7 days. Filter and Sterile filter the beer on the way to the bottler.

                        In the U.S. I have used Nottingham under pressure ferment of 10 psi for the first 3/4 of Fermentation and then up to 15 psi for the final 1/4 til terminal. rest at ferm temp for 1 day drop yeast and do not harvest!!! crash cool for 2 to 3 days and filter. total of 5-6 days total. ( With this Method I would Use Fresh Dry Yeast Each Ferment. We had to run this Schedule do to Demand. We would Hydrate the yeast w/fresh wort a day in advance to get the yeast ready) I am sure I will get rash of returns on these practices. This is what is being done now a days to maximize production and unfortunately in Germany. Companies that ferment and age traditionally are being bought up by the Breweries that are knocking out beers that fast.. Do I agree.... well I see both sides to the practices.

                        My 2 Cents...
                        Last edited by brewerallyn; 02-07-2010, 09:20 AM.
                        rattbrewer

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          it can be done and then some...

                          In Germany right now lagers are being fermented in 3 days and Packaged in 3 more days so 6 in all. I have put out Alt in 5 days on regular basis in Germany. So if your reading the age old brewing concepts that say it can't be done without making bad beer is an age old belief..
                          Now to contradict what I said and to what I do and practice now at my own Brewery. Kai is right on with schedule and the right yeast for the job. I prefer an old Bavarian Yeast for my Bottle conditioned Kellerbier. It could not and can not be rushed do to the fact of the amount of sulfur produced. I love that aspect of it and why I use it. 6 weeks minimum for that one.
                          At the same time I oversee a Old Guard Brewery that we are putting out Lagers in a shorter than traditional time, with nothing but, an increase in customer positive feedback on beer quality. We'll ferment under pressure at 57 degrees and test for Diacetyl. When we get the D in to Spec we centrifuge and cool the beer and send to Rough Storage. Filter and Sterile filter the beer on the way to the bottler.

                          In the U.S. I have used Nottingham under pressure ferment of 10 psi for the first 3/4 of Fermentation and then up to 15 psi for the final 1/4 til terminal. rest at ferm temp for 1 day drop yeast and do not harvest!!! crash cool for 2 to 3 days and filter. total of 5-6 days total. ( With this Method I would Use Fresh Dry Yeast Each Ferment. We had to run this Schedule do to Demand. We would Hydrate the yeast a day in advance to get the yeast ready) I am sure I will get rash of returns on these practices. This is what is being done now a days to maximize production and unfortunately in Germany. Companies that ferment and age traditionally are being bought up by the Breweries that are knocking out beers that fast.. Do I agree.... well I see both sides to the practices.

                          My 2 Cents...
                          Last edited by brewerallyn; 02-07-2010, 09:08 AM.
                          rattbrewer

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            When I visited Croatia some years back I was introduced to pressure fermenting. What kind of temps are you using with the Nottingham? They were doing unfiltered lagers in the 3 day range from grain to glass. Fermented at 90dF and 2.5 bar.

                            R/
                            Mike Pensinger
                            General Manager/Brewmaster
                            Parkway Brewing Company
                            Salem, VA

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Why does fermenting under pressure speed the process?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I think the key is the elevated temp makes the yeast go crazy. Under normal conditions the high temp would produce loads of off flavors but the pressure keeps it from doing that.

                                R/
                                Mike Pensinger
                                General Manager/Brewmaster
                                Parkway Brewing Company
                                Salem, VA

                                Comment

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