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  • #16
    Originally posted by tariq khan
    Liam,

    Just curious as to your reasons to not use finings, Do you filter ?

    T
    I do filter. I also use kettle finings (Irish Moss). What I meant was that I don't use finings beyond the kettle. I do filter my beers. Some more than others.

    I have some issues with finings in general. Not being vegetarian is one (I am not vegetarian myself, however). I also find that many brands of isinglass and gelatin arrive preserved with sulfite. Sometimes quite heavily.

    Even when they are prepped properly, these sulfites will piggyback into your beer. Although there are often naturally occurring sulfites in yeast fermentation, I've seen some pretty crappy wines and beers miraculously 'cleaned' up via sulfites. And I'm not talking about clarity here.

    I've also known brewers who, when presented with a difficult to fine beer, will double or treble the amount of finings used. This can represent a large hit of sulfite to the beer. I happen to be particularly sensitive to sulfites, both free and bound. I generally avoid cask beer for this reason (and many wines as well).

    Pax.

    Liam
    Liam McKenna
    www.yellowbellybrewery.com

    Comment


    • #17
      I've spoken to brewers who are quite happy with the piggybacking effects of the sulphite in their finings - as a way to help preserve their beer, (likewise I've spoken to finings manufacturers/sellers who use talk of this "added benefit"! to their clarifying products) but like you Liam, I'd personally rather it wasn't there.

      I used to know a microbrewer who bought an isinglass paste & made up a new batch of finings every brew - I think that had no sulphites in.

      I think one or more of the main UK fining makers sells a powdered isinglass product - I'm not sure if that is preserved with Sulphites - perhaps not.

      cheers
      MikeMcG

      Comment


      • #18
        Finings

        Liam, thanks for the clarification (no pun intended!)....I'm sensitive to sulfites as well.....Cask ale was a problem for me when I lived in England......2 pints would give me a headache but when I had numerous beers in Germany or Austria I never had a problem.
        There's also the vegetarian issue (which I am). I would definitely love to avoid isinglass all together.

        Mike: I think Murphy's has a powdered isinglass that does not contain sulfites

        Cheers !

        Tariq
        Tariq Khan (Brewer/Distiller)

        Yaletown Brewing and Distilling Co.
        Vancouver, B.C.
        Canada

        Comment


        • #19
          Biofine P19 and aging

          We use Biofine P19 because it doesn't have sulfites (they are prohibited in organic production in Canada). It works for us both as a cask fining and a tank fining, no problem. Not quite as tight a floc as gelatine, but still perfectly acceptable. With a kettle fining and a high floc yeast, we don't filter any of our beers. We do get a wee slug of yeast in the standpipe in the bottom of the grundies, but that's it.

          Now for casks - is the idea of ageing for 2 weeks to mature the beer or to assist with clarity? And if I dare ask... I'm trying to get my head around the actual difference (as opposed to the ideological difference) between they way we make beer and cask ales. Beer started in open fermenters with natural yeast flocculation, transferred to a finishing tank with finings, kept under pressure from CO2, then kegged directly without pasteurization or filtering. This is so different from casked ale how? One transfer (from from finishing tank to keg) and added CO2 because our open fermenters lose the initial CO2. We keep our beers at very low carbonation anyway - so as far as I can see, we are producing cask-quality beers in a way that they can be kept longer, served longer and enjoyed by more people.

          That said, we make casks regularly, with a combination of krausening with fresh wort, adding various types of sugar (honey, molasses, fruit), and of course playing with flavours (fruit, wood, herbs, hops). We love it, I'm permanently in love with our beer engine, and we are trying to continue to promote cask beers throughout BC. Mostly, I love the experimentation and the softer carbonation. I'm personally not opposed to some haze in beer, from yeast or a bit of fruit or protein. Too much is obviously a problem, but why does beer have to be crystal clear? Zima anyone?

          setting the cat amongst the pigeons (or a wrench in the works)....
          Crannóg Ales
          Canada's Certified Organic, on-farm microbrewery
          www.crannogales.com

          Comment


          • #20
            cask/Finings

            I agree, a bit of haze is fine with me. Unfortunately in England, cask beer has to be bright otherwise it'll get sent back, so proper stillaging is a must.

            Rebecca you'd be interested to know that one of my favourite breweries in the U.K. is Marble Brewery in Manchester. http://www.marblebeers.co.uk/
            They are organic and vegan (no finings). Their beers usually have a slight haze but I've never had a cloudy pint. They do stillage a lot longer to settle out the beers though.

            In my opinion cask conditioning is for maturation purposes mainly, to develop condition and flavours.I think the main difference you are describing in maturing beer in tank as opposed to cask conditioning is the temp. My cellar is about 4 deg C, In England our cask cold rooms were about 10deg c to encourage a secondary fermentation and proper maturation. I love the combination of proper maturation, proper stillaging, and a beer engine. Their really is nothing quite like cask beer when it's done properly.

            Unfortunately I don't have the conditions to do cask ale properly at the moment but I'm hoping to change that soon.
            Tariq Khan (Brewer/Distiller)

            Yaletown Brewing and Distilling Co.
            Vancouver, B.C.
            Canada

            Comment


            • #21
              Marble brewery

              Sorry this link is better !

              cheers !


              Tariq Khan (Brewer/Distiller)

              Yaletown Brewing and Distilling Co.
              Vancouver, B.C.
              Canada

              Comment


              • #22
                Thanks, Tariq. Our biggest problem with cask beers is that we can really only bring them to festivals, so we HAVE to fine to get them halfway to clearing again before service.

                I'd also like to know what people are using as a sugar source: we can't/don't use corn sugar because it's GMO. We're trying to do a lot more casks by using beer straight from the fermenter, but it doesn't always work with timing of brews and festivals. Mostly we're re-fermenting, about 35L finished beer with added sugar and yeast - using first-run wort, honey, molasses as sugar sources. It's not ideal, and I'd love to know anyone else's methodology.

                Off to go fix the beer engine for next weekend's festival - word to the wise: don't leave water/cleaner in the beer engine, then leave it outside to freeze. Whoops.

                Tariq - are you coming to the Penticton festival?
                Crannóg Ales
                Canada's Certified Organic, on-farm microbrewery
                www.crannogales.com

                Comment


                • #23
                  cask/finings

                  I'm planning to experiment with Biofine clear a3 in casks and see how it does but it's difficult if I can't get any stiilage/settling time.

                  For priming I usually use organic brown sugar, In England we used brewing syrup (61 % fermentable), I think they are non-gmo.

                  Our brewery is in the middle of renovations so I probably won't be able to make the beer fest this year sadly !

                  Cheers !

                  Tariq
                  Tariq Khan (Brewer/Distiller)

                  Yaletown Brewing and Distilling Co.
                  Vancouver, B.C.
                  Canada

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Why not try some boiled strong worts - > 1.1 SG taken from the first runnings off the mash tun. After all, this is what traditional krausening uses. Obviously not as concentrated as sugar syrups from cane or beet, but at least you know its providence
                    dick

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                    • #25
                      Try organic , unbleached cane sugar for priming. Only adds a very slight amount of colour.

                      Currently use it wherever I would use white sugar (coffee, tea, baking etc.). Don't use sugars in brewing currently.

                      Widely available at 'bulk' food stores.

                      Pax.

                      Liam
                      Liam McKenna
                      www.yellowbellybrewery.com

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        sugar sources

                        We are currently experimenting with boiled strong (first run) wort - and so far it's working great. Cane sugar and corn sugar are completely different molecular structure, and break down very differently. Our experiments with cane sugars (organic) have not been terribly satisfying, as they don't seem to ferment out fully, leaving the beer sweeter than is desired (especially for IPAs). Same for honey, but molasses seems to be fine. Mind you, we use it in porters, which don't mind a bit of residual sweetness!

                        I'm actually considering taking first wort and canning it so that it's stable and available when I need it for casks. Eventually, I'll be back at homebrewing again, with half the brewery in my kitchen - or half the kitchen in the brewery.
                        Crannóg Ales
                        Canada's Certified Organic, on-farm microbrewery
                        www.crannogales.com

                        Comment

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