Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Carbonation Cyle Length

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Do not vent.

    Although it seems I'm doing so now... There is no reason to vent and there are no advantages to venting. None. Unless you want to waste CO2 and strip your beer of aroma and give your beer a CO2 bite and kill your head formation and retention. I know it's an old thread, but I think someone needs to address this. Ted and Charronc, I'm totally and intimately familiar with ideal gas law. That is not the issue here. We are speaking primarily about dissolution of CO2 into beer at a set temperature and with a set head pressure. Not varying the head pressure and temperature--where the ideal gas law would come into play to tell us how much volume and what quantity of gas we need. IF you close the CIP arm and you get no CO2 flow into your beer, then your beer is saturated with CO2. IF you close the CIP arm and your tank pressure increases, then your beer is saturated with CO2. IF your applied pressure equals the resistance of the system, then your beer is saturated with CO2. Ideally, and at or near equilibrium of course. If you introduce massive bubbles that just glug through your beer, then yes--you will explode your tank with no real increase in carbonation. But if you are carbonating gently and slowly with proper head pressure and beer temperature, then your CO2 gas will dissolve into solution. Not contribute to head pressure. Venting your CO2 does nothing except allow your beer to become a conduit for CO2 flow from your stone through your beer and back out of your beer to the atmosphere. How could that possibly be good for carbonation? I just don't get it. And years of practical experience back this up. Ask yourself where the CO2 comes from when you vent? It comes from your carbonation stone, through your beer, foams at the surface and leaves via the exact same (but in reverse) mechanism as carbonating with head pressure. Froptus, I agree that if you want to LOWER your carbonation (hope that never happens), then you can use venting and bumping the system to disturb the equilibrium and strip CO2 from your beer. In that case, venting is the only way to rid the beer of excess CO2. But it certainly does not help increase carbonation levels. I know many good brewers still vent. And some otherwise good books that recommend venting. I just don't think that they need to. I welcome any dialogue here to the contrary as I am perplexed why this practice exists.
    Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

    Comment


    • #17
      Gitchegumee. I understand the argument to not vent but I read that whole thread and saw a fews guys commenting that the process did not work that well unless you were able to spund in your fermenters. Currently we don't have that ability but will soon. We are learning to carb in our 2 bbl brite before our 7 bbls arrive.
      Will your process still work without spunding? If so I did set up our brite to do so minus the flometer. I need to order one still. Thanks for your feedback.

      Comment


      • #18
        Agree 100% w/ Glitch. We spund all our lagers, but our IPA is not and we get full carbonation in 4-6 hours w/o any venting. W/ a good regulator and flowmeter, the results are perfect every single time and there's less negative effect on the beer. We even have a Zahm and I'm getting to the point where I wonder why we even use it anymore. More just for peace of mind than anything I suppose.

        Comment


        • #19
          No spunding. No venting. At 35f I get to 10-12 psi constant head pressure in a day. Raise the reg pressure every hour or so. End reg pressure usually reads about 18-20
          Prost!
          Eric Brandjes
          Cole Street Brewery
          Enumclaw, WA

          Comment


          • #20
            On a 4bbl brite
            Prost!
            Eric Brandjes
            Cole Street Brewery
            Enumclaw, WA

            Comment


            • #21
              Carboantion and practices

              We have an educational page on our website http://www.meheen.com/support/education/ that should help clarify this subject. Take a look at "Carbonation & Conditioning Techniques" video from 2014 CBC, "Carbonation Demystified" and "Carb Stone Setup and test".

              Comment


              • #22
                Very nice presentation. I'm glad I took the time to view it. Very well organized and documented and explains much about carbonation mechanics. Now I know to call venting "blow and go". The one thing that sets apart the technique that I describe from these three gentlemens' CBC presentation is the difference between their pressure-based approach and my flow rate-based approach. I agree that knowing your carbonation stone's wetting pressure is crucial. At the very least it can indicate when you have leaks in your stone assembly by showing an inappropriately low pressure --for example when you are blowing the CO2 out of an improperly set gasket. Or an inappropriately high pressure--for example when you have a blockage issue--such as skin oil on the stone (that video impressed me). And you do want to set a reasonable pressure so that your tank doesn't explode when you walk away. But I go a step further and add a flow meter to show the rate at which you are adding gas. A regulator will not do that. It will only imply a certain flow rate. And then only if your stone is operating perfectly. And each make and length of stone is different. Similar to knowing the wetting pressure of your carbonation stone, you should also know the flow rate at which the fine curtain of gas is most efficacious. I believe that the two are related for any given stone--higher pressures induce higher flow rates. A flow meter gives me the certainty that gas is indeed flowing into the stone at a rate that I know provides a fine curtain of gas bubbles. And the pressure gauge confirms that there is no blockage or leakage. I have been dismissive of pressure readings in the past because so many people want to know what pressure equals what flow rate. The two are different, but related. And both are important. Even if you are not spunding, you can and should slowly and gently carbonate with these methods and never vent.
                Last edited by gitchegumee; 08-26-2014, 06:34 AM.
                Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by gitchegumee View Post
                  Very nice presentation. I'm glad I took the time to view it. Very well organized and documented and explains much about carbonation mechanics. Now I know to call venting "blow and go". The one thing that sets apart the technique that I describe from these three gentlemens' CBC presentation is the difference between their pressure-based approach and my flow rate-based approach. I agree that knowing your carbonation stone's wetting pressure is crucial. At the very least it can indicate when you have leaks in your stone assembly by showing an inappropriately low pressure --for example when you are blowing the CO2 out of an improperly set gasket. Or an inappropriately high pressure--for example when you have a blockage issue--such as skin oil on the stone (that video impressed me). And you do want to set a reasonable pressure so that your tank doesn't explode when you walk away. But I go a step further and add a flow meter to show the rate at which you are adding gas. A regulator will not do that. It will only imply a certain flow rate. And then only if your stone is operating perfectly. And each make and length of stone is different. Similar to knowing the wetting pressure of your carbonation stone, you should also know the flow rate at which the fine curtain of gas is most efficacious. I believe that the two are related for any given stone--higher pressures induce higher flow rates. A flow meter gives me the certainty that gas is indeed flowing into the stone at a rate that I know provides a fine curtain of gas bubbles. And the pressure gauge confirms that there is no blockage or leakage. I have been dismissive of pressure readings in the past because so many people want to know what pressure equals what flow rate. The two are different, but related. And both are important. Even if you are not spunding, you can and should slowly and gently carbonate with these methods and never vent.
                  Hey Glitchegumee,

                  Thanks for posting all the info you have provided not only on this thread, but the big thread about carbing 10 bbl to 2 vol.I really want to never do the 'blow and go' method ever again. The only thing is I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the actual set up and process of the method. I'm a huge visual learner so I was just wondering if you had a video or a few pictures detailing the process you use that could really help me get a grasp of it all. Thanks again for taking all the time you have for responding to this carbonation issue.
                  Tony Fleming
                  Daredevil Brewing Company

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    circulating while carbing in tank

                    Originally posted by toneflem View Post
                    Hey Glitchegumee,

                    Thanks for posting all the info you have provided not only on this thread, but the big thread about carbing 10 bbl to 2 vol.I really want to never do the 'blow and go' method ever again. The only thing is I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the actual set up and process of the method. I'm a huge visual learner so I was just wondering if you had a video or a few pictures detailing the process you use that could really help me get a grasp of it all. Thanks again for taking all the time you have for responding to this carbonation issue.
                    I hate to post on an old thread but I equally creating a new thread of the same topic...

                    Could you carb faster by circulating the beer from bottom to racking valve while under pressure?
                    This would help saturate liquid by moving it more. Similar to cooling being more effective with moving wort.

                    Has anyone tried it? I'm about it.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      That works.

                      I've used this method frequently where the stone would be too high in a partial tank to carbonate well. Stone on a tee and circulation works well. But it's not incredibly faster than plan A. And it also adds oxygen and beats up your beer, so it would not be my first choice. But if you must, then it does work. Cheers!
                      Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Meheen View Post
                        We have an educational page on our website http://www.meheen.com/support/education/ that should help clarify this subject. Take a look at "Carbonation & Conditioning Techniques" video from 2014 CBC, "Carbonation Demystified" and "Carb Stone Setup and test".
                        Howdy hi all,
                        I viewed the Meheen carbonation video also. Very good info! I've been in this game for more than awhile and I found info in it very worthwhile.
                        I'm going to carbonate my next round of beer by setting the pressure on my stone and closing the CIP arm while leaving the PRV in place. It worked when I homebrewed (oh, those memorable days!). True, I can't pick up the tank and shake it but perhaps I'll get smaller bubbles and a more "organic" carbonation experience by the end user!
                        We shall see.

                        Prost!
                        Dave
                        Glacier Brewing Company
                        406-883-2595
                        info@glacierbrewing.com

                        "who said what now?"

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          You'll love it.

                          You'll use less CO2, carbonate faster, and obtain a more stable, finer head and more delicate aromas by NOT VENTING! Just be sure to use a high quality stone with fine pores so that the CO2 doesn't just blow through the beer. After learning a few quirks, you'll have perfectly and fully carbonated beer with no muss! Best of luck!
                          Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by gitchegumee View Post
                            You'll use less CO2, carbonate faster, and obtain a more stable, finer head and more delicate aromas by NOT VENTING! Just be sure to use a high quality stone with fine pores so that the CO2 doesn't just blow through the beer. After learning a few quirks, you'll have perfectly and fully carbonated beer with no muss! Best of luck!
                            Thank you Philip. I'll post an "after picture".

                            Prost!
                            Dave
                            Glacier Brewing Company
                            406-883-2595
                            info@glacierbrewing.com

                            "who said what now?"

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I’ve just gone pro and carbed 25bbls with gitchegumee’s methodology and it worked so well that I can’t see doing it any other way, ever. Very fast and easy, no guessing really, Perfect foam, my customers are very impressed.

                              One of the best sources on here!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                To be fair...

                                This is not "my" methodology. It's been done this way forever by large and small breweries everywhere. I've just been on a mission to smash the urban myth surrounding venting and to start with saturation pressure of the final product. I call it Isobaric carbonation because the bulk of carbonation happens at a constant final saturation pressure. Happy to hear that it was that easy for you. Some folks have small issues that keep them from getting this kind of success from the start. Good luck!
                                Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X