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CO2 use for carbonating 10bbl to 2 volumes

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  • #16
    Lol, he said "global warming!" Most brewers know that CO2 is a heavy gas and high concentrations of it sink to the lowest point. Hence the danger in venting excess CO2. Anyone who thinks that CO2 is a "greenhouse" gas is plain uninformed. Most on the west coast are familiar with the term "tree line." It's the term used to describe the highest elevation trees will grow due to the fact that there is not enough CO2 up there to sustain their growth.

    So, I guess we can put this "global warming caused by CO2" crap to rest.
    Joe Kearns
    Brewmaster
    The White Hag Brewing Co.
    Sligo, Ireland

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    • #17
      I put the "Gitchegumee Carbonation Process" to the test yesterday on my 4 bbl system. 3 hours and was perfectly carbonated. Great Advice. Thank You

      theBrewMeister, a Physicist my wife works with at NASA gets infuriated every time he hears someone say co2 gas causes greenhouse warming. He started arguing one time with a co-worker that was so sure it was true, too piss this guy off he went over and open a Dewar of co2 just to piss off the guy.
      Jon Sheldon
      Owner/Brewer/Chief Floor Mopper
      Bugnutty Brewing Company
      www.bugnutty.com

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      • #18
        Roc-craven, thanks but I'm not the one who "invented" this method. Think it would make more sense to call it an isobaric carbonation. Set the pressure to saturation at your given temperature and carbonation level and carbonate away at the same pressure.
        Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

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        • #19
          Originally posted by gitchegumee
          Roc-craven, thanks but I'm not the one who "invented" this method. Think it would make more sense to call it an isobaric carbonation. Set the pressure to saturation at your given temperature and carbonation level and carbonate away at the same pressure.

          Well you brought it to my attention, so that's good enough for me. Isobaric Carbonation just doesn't have the same ring to it.
          Jon Sheldon
          Owner/Brewer/Chief Floor Mopper
          Bugnutty Brewing Company
          www.bugnutty.com

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          • #20
            This works so well we're overcarbonating beers! We lack a flowmeter, so here's our process: set head pressure to 1 PSI below the saturation point. Push CO2 through the stone as slow as we can by setting the regular to just above the wetting pressure of the stone. Wait.

            We tend to overcarb (verified by our Zahm). What to do?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Woolsocks
              This works so well we're overcarbonating beers! We lack a flowmeter, so here's our process: set head pressure to 1 PSI below the saturation point. Push CO2 through the stone as slow as we can by setting the regular to just above the wetting pressure of the stone. Wait.

              We tend to overcarb (verified by our Zahm). What to do?
              I would verify that your thermometer and pressure gauge are accurate. If they are, you shouldn't overcarbonate with the appropriate values from a carbonation table - I suspect one or both is wrong!

              Rob

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              • #22
                OK, I can check the thermometer. Is there a reliable way to check a pressure gauge?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Woolsocks
                  OK, I can check the thermometer. Is there a reliable way to check a pressure gauge?
                  I would start by just verifying it with a secondary pressure gauge. I would also verify both your Zahm and tank gauges. It could be one, both, or a combo of any of those gauges.

                  Rob

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                  • #24
                    Thanks to Phillip for always providing such a wealth of information on here. I tend to bookmark the most informative probrewer threads, and alot of times he's the one that made it so informative.
                    John Little | Auburn, Alabama
                    General Counsel, Southern Farmhouse

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                    • #25
                      Rotameter flow rate range?

                      Very interested in this and curious as to what flow rate is appropriate...on the Omega website (http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=FLD) I see many options. My first guess is that a 1 l/minute maximum (100 ml/minute minimum) would be too fast for CO2 at 34 F for a 10bbl bright tank but there are ones that work at much lower rates, down to 20ml/minute max...perhaps a balloon could be of some use here. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

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                      • #26
                        Issues

                        So we've been trying the Gitchegumee carbonation method. Very inconsistent results. Sometimes it works just as predicted. More often, we find that after a few hours of "carbonating", the head pressure has fallen by about 5 PSI and there's not much CO2 in the beer. Even if we re-pressurize the head and resume carbonating, we tend to have the same thing happen again.

                        We're not using a flowmeter (yet) but instead open our regulator just wide enough that there's gas flowing. We've been experimenting with how far to open the regulator. The other thing is that not all our carbonation stones are the same size/shape. Could this be a factor?

                        Help us, Gitchegumme, you're our only hope!

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                        • #27
                          Let's think about what's going on to lower your pressure. This happens for legitimate, known reasons. Lowered pressures are not good for carbonation. Because with a set carbonation rate, lowering your tank pressure will increase the gradient with the regulator and you'll be carbonating too quickly--foaming your beer and preferentially raising the head pressure rather than carbonating your beer. You could see these high flow rates with a flow meter.

                          First, make sure that your undercarbonated beer that you're trying to carbonate is at your required packaging temperature. If you put a slightly warmer beer in a tank, pressurize to saturation, and then cool a few degrees to your desired packaging temperature, guess what happens slowly over time?

                          Second, keep your head pressure constant by adjusting your accurate head pressure regulator to about 1psi below final saturation pressure. What happens with beers that are low in initial carbonation (say one that isn't spunded in time, and is therefore low in CO2), is that the rather large surface to volume ratio in a 10bbl tank will have the CO2 from the headspace diffuse into solution if there is a large saturation gradient. And then guess what?

                          These first two problems are the crux of carbonation: temperature and pressure. They should be (substantially) fixed to carbonate well. Third, you need a flowmeter. One of the easiest ways to LOWER carbonation in a tank of beer is to blast it with CO2 through the stone and then vent (banging the tank with a mallet before the vent seems to encourage this--and BTW I do not recommend this at all--I'm just reporting what I've seen). The blast of CO2 effectively purges some of the won carbonation from solution. So you need to make sure that your flow is low. A pressure gauge won't tell you this. You need a flowmeter to see it.

                          I'm confident that if you keep your beer at a constant low temperature, and constant pressure while you trickle your CO2 through a flow meter, you will carbonate perfectly every time. And rather quickly as well. As a side note, perhaps accurate records of beer condition such as spunding temperature, pressure rise before cooling, finished beer temperature and pressure after cooling, and corresponding CO2 volumes would help guide you to understanding the gas dynamics of this system. I'm sure you could find a reason that some of your beers carbonate perfectly--and why others require more attention.
                          Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

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                          • #28
                            OK, modified things and we'll now try with one regulator maintaining pressure on the headspace and another letting CO2 through the stone.

                            Next up: add a flowmeter.

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                            • #29
                              Update: past four carbonation experiments are a total success...I still don't have a flowmeter but I've been able to carbonate perfectly overnight by using Gitchee's "isobaric" method without venting...improved head retention and finished aroma are immediately evident. Now, any thoughts on the range of speed for a flowmeter? Incredible how much I've learned from this thread!

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                              • #30
                                Again, rotameters are made for a certain gas and delivery pressure & temperature. Nothing at all wrong with using a rotameter for air, or N2 or even O2; and at just about any reasonable temperature or pressure. You just have to relate the different gases, temperature and pressure. I currently carbonate 20hl beer at 2C using a 300 l/hr rotameter set to half scale calibrated for air at 4 bar and 20C. Also have used McMaster #5079K64 which is for air from 0.4-5.0 SCFM--also about half scale. Very cheap and easy, but it's been working daily now for 6 years with no issues.
                                Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

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