Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

CO2 use for carbonating 10bbl to 2 volumes

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    I get 50# tanks for $9.00 a month rental and they refill it for $17 and I can pick the tanks up, or they deliver for $7 which is less than my gas there and back.
    John McKissack
    Texas Big Beer Brewery
    Newton County, Texas

    Comment


    • #32
      Renting tanks is usually a losing deal unless you don't expect to need them more than a few months. You'll make near 30% annual return on investing in your own. That is better than a fixed horse race. Unless there is some other circumstance.

      Comment


      • #33
        that's a pretty good idea with the flow meter. what we have done here is winter long (we are slower then and had time to wait for the beer to be carbed...) exhaustive tests of "exact PSI" carbonation stone pressures. I have found that for our Amber Ale, 22.75 psi will carbonate a 60 bbl tank overnight (7 hours) and has never over carbonated the tank. 23 psi will begin to overcarbonate (we carb to 2.5 or so...) after 8 hours. 22 PSI will not get over 2.15 after two days....

        I would love to finish fermenting under pressure but my DE filter HATES carbonated beer and we are on 12 day cycles and don't have time to refilter (unless we need to and can stay all niht for a second run!)...

        so we filter into cleaned 60 bbl BBT (start at 8 am), finish pushing scavenger plate ~ 12 pm. Pressurize BBT to 13 PSI. Hook up CO2 stone at 22.75 and leave on until the following morning. Do quick Zahm test to pin point. Then keg or bottle....

        What's your take on filtering and then about 1/2 through filtration adding CO2 inline as long at filtering under pressure?

        Comment


        • #34
          Dereknobleluke, That's a great way to carbonate. We used to filter and carbonate en route to the bright tank. Bright tank set for one or two psi over desired saturation pressure, pinpoint carbonator immediately after the filter, and a long hose to the bright tank. Might need to tweak the carbonation slightly once the run is done. You won't need to wait until your half way through; you can start carbonating as soon as you have your filtration stable. Give it a try, I think you'll like it. Great time saver.
          Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

          Comment


          • #35
            Sort of bring this thread back. I tried gitchegumee's method. I had head pressure set to 14psi and set stone pressure to 5 psi. Beer went through the stone and up the gas tube.

            Comment


            • #36
              Doesn't sound like what I outlined...

              In "my" method, you can throw away your CO2 pressure gauge. It is not your primary source of information. Your flow meter IS. Get a flow meter and watch it. You should also have a check valve on your CO2 stone. Regardless of whatever pressure is needed to crack the check valve, "unwet" the carbonation stone, push against the tank pressure, and push against the head pressure, the flow of CO2 is your primary concern. NOT THE PRESSURE. Besides, if you have a head pressure of 14psi, and set your stone pressure to 4, then beer SHOULD run up your carbonation hose--it's lower pressure! You need more pressure on the stone than the head pressure in the Bright tank, right? If you follow the outline I gave carefully, you'll start to figure out carbonation and never have issues again. Good luck!
              Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by gitchegumee View Post
                In "my" method, you can throw away your CO2 pressure gauge. It is not your primary source of information. Your flow meter IS. Get a flow meter and watch it. You should also have a check valve on your CO2 stone. Regardless of whatever pressure is needed to crack the check valve, "unwet" the carbonation stone, push against the tank pressure, and push against the head pressure, the flow of CO2 is your primary concern. NOT THE PRESSURE. Besides, if you have a head pressure of 14psi, and set your stone pressure to 4, then beer SHOULD run up your carbonation hose--it's lower pressure! You need more pressure on the stone than the head pressure in the Bright tank, right? If you follow the outline I gave carefully, you'll start to figure out carbonation and never have issues again. Good luck!
                Thanks Phillip. You're right.

                Comment


                • #38
                  I had a little bit of confusion on this carbing method.

                  We have a 15psi PRV on the top of the tank.

                  Do we:

                  A) raise the temp of the beer to match the saturation levels, ie: 41f and start pumping CO2.
                  B) keep the temp low but get an adjustable prv (the ones i found on the net do not have great reviews as far as accurate set points)

                  Also:
                  how necessary is a spunding device?

                  And:
                  after the rotameter slows down (or stops?) can we place the co2 pressure to saturation psi for that temp and leave overnight?

                  And:
                  how fast does the flow on the rotameter need to be?

                  thanks

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    You do not raise your temperature or change your PRV. Any you most certainly wouldn't vent any CO2--just in case you thought about it. Consult a carbonation chart for your pressure and temperature for your desired carbonation level. For example: Lower your temperature to 37F. Raise the head pressure to 13psi. Throw away your pressure gauge that measures stone pressure--it's almost useless. Begin gentle flow USING A FLOWMETER into the carbonation stone.

                    A spunding device will allow you to carbonate naturall--to an extent--for a finer foam.

                    When your CO2 flowmeter slows down and your pressure creeps up a tiny bit, you're done. Don't change anything. You may bottle or keg as long as you keep this same head pressure constant.

                    The speed of carbonation depends on your stone type, size of tank, and degree of carbonation you start with. For my particular use, I've found that half way on the flowmeter I recommended works well.
                    Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Thanks for the clarification,

                      I did not realize that there are essentially 2 CO2 feed to the tank.

                      One of CO2 on a regulator holding head pressure for the desired saturation level according to the force carb chart.
                      One of CO2 with the flow meter/rotameter/floating ball, showing when gas is flowing.

                      correct me if I am wrong,

                      fyi, a very useful thread!
                      Last edited by Beer-me; 04-16-2014, 06:42 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        That's it!

                        You want your not-fully-carbonated beer to have a head pressure corresponding to your desired saturation at holding temperature. Normally about 13psi. Once achieved, you can pretty much disconnect the feed to the CIP arm and the tank should remain at this pressure. Add CO2 through your carbonation stone slowly and gently as indicated on your flow meter. Your beer is fully carbonated when the head pressure rises slightly, and your carbonation flow rate slows. You may also find that your tank temperature rises slightly. That's a good thing--it means that the beer is rolling gently in the tank and de-stratifying. It helps carbonate the tank evenly, and cool the bulk to the same temperature. Good luck!
                        Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Flowmeter Q?

                          Ok just read this whole thread and this is the exact info I have been searching for Carbonating without venting. I am still confused a bit on what the flowmeter is and how it works and what scale does it use (psi?) You can adjust the flowmeter? How?

                          Lets go over the process as how I understand it.

                          Close to the end for fermentation cap the FV. Once target gravity is reached cool to 32F~. Pressure the BBT to just above the pressure in the FV say the FV is at 10psi set the BBT at 12~. set up your pump and lines then bleed off press in BBT till they are equal then you can open your vales turn on the pump and transfer the beer to the BBT. (or do you lower the BBT tank to just under the FV pressure say to 9psi then open vales and pump?) now the beer is in the BBT set the pressure in the bright tank to 1 point under the saturation point. Say 13 psi. then you say to set the flowmeter at half scale. what does that mean? At this point the carb stone pressure is slightly higher then head pressure and the flowmeter will keep slowly adding co2. You can set this over night and when you get back the pressure in the head space should be at the desired saturation point of 14 psi.

                          I would just like to know if my thinking is on track and what do you set your flowmeter at? And when you say watch the flowmeter what are you looking for?
                          Last edited by jcmccoy; 04-30-2014, 10:09 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by jcmccoy View Post
                            Pressure the BBT to just above the pressure in the FV say the FV is at 10psi set the BBT at 12~. set up your pump and lines then bleed off press in BBT till they are equal then you can open your vales turn on the pump and transfer the beer to the BBT. (or do you lower the BBT tank to just under the FV pressure say to 9psi then open vales and pump?)
                            No.

                            When you move beer from tank A to tank B under pressure think of them as pistons. As you move from A, you're removing liquid and creating a vacuum in the head space of A, while you're silmultaneously increasing the pressure in B as you compress the head space of B with beer. As that pressure rises your pump has to work harder and harder. I suppose in an extreme case if your pump was powerful enough, you could crumple tank A and pop tank B.

                            Solution: in your sani loop include another length of hose. Hook it up from the CIP arms of the brite and the tank. Bleed co2 from one end to purge the hose. Once you open both CIP valves, pressure will equalize between the tanks. As liquid moves from A to be, the vacuum created and the pressure generated balance through this hose, as if the tanks were open to the air. You could move them back and forth under 14 psi as if they were under 0, since the pressures are balanced.
                            Russell Everett
                            Co-Founder / Head Brewer
                            Bainbridge Island Brewing
                            Bainbridge Island, WA

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Bainbridge View Post
                              No.

                              When you move beer from tank A to tank B under pressure think of them as pistons. As you move from A, you're removing liquid and creating a vacuum in the head space of A, while you're silmultaneously increasing the pressure in B as you compress the head space of B with beer. As that pressure rises your pump has to work harder and harder. I suppose in an extreme case if your pump was powerful enough, you could crumple tank A and pop tank B.

                              Solution: in your sani loop include another length of hose. Hook it up from the CIP arms of the brite and the tank. Bleed co2 from one end to purge the hose. Once you open both CIP valves, pressure will equalize between the tanks. As liquid moves from A to be, the vacuum created and the pressure generated balance through this hose, as if the tanks were open to the air. You could move them back and forth under 14 psi as if they were under 0, since the pressures are balanced.
                              So basically try to have equal pressure in each tank then hook the tanks together via the CIP arms bleed the hose of O2 then open the cip vales and turn on the pump. Once the beer is in the bright time to carbonate. I understand now to get the desired level of CO2 add the wetting pressure of the carb stone + Liquid pressure on the stone (1psi per 28'') + psi needed at equilibrium (Vol of CO2 from carb chart) = the psi the carbonation stone should be set at.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Yep. Except it doesn't matter if the tanks are the same psi. Once you open the valves they will equalize. (Just do it slowly if like, one is 12 psi and one is 1 psi or the spray balls will spin like crazy!)
                                Last edited by Bainbridge; 05-01-2014, 03:52 PM.
                                Russell Everett
                                Co-Founder / Head Brewer
                                Bainbridge Island Brewing
                                Bainbridge Island, WA

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X