unmalted cereals in a single-infusion system

[Supernaut]

Hello All,

I had the time on Sunday to try an experiment on my 7 BBL system. I brewed up a witbier grain bill with 45% unmalted wheat in it. I wasn't sure if this would be possible with a single infusion and no cereal cooker and I wanted to try it.

Well, it wasn't possible. I missed my gravity target by a pretty wide margin. As a result I sent the thing to the drain. Not a big deal - it was an experiment.

My belief is that either I (1) was unable to fully gelatinize the wheat with a 1 hour 150F rest and/or (2) I was unable to fully convert the starches in that same mash. I think #1 is the main culprit.

Anyone here using 40-50% unmalted cereals in a single infusion mash? I use 20% regularly in other beers with no problem (unmalted rye). I am interested in witbiers and also in cream ale (corn) in the future, hence my experiement. It would be difficult in this brewpub space to "cereal mash" 150 lbs. of grain...

Should I consider getting a pump that can move a cereal mash from my kettle to my mash tun?

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

John

[dfalken]

I had a big variation in a pilot sized batch using unmalted wheat as well. Last time I brewed it my OG came out to 1.053 but this time it came out to 1.048 and I was able to knockout only about 90% of the wort amount of last time. The main difference I think was that the first time my initial lauter got completely stuck and was a mess and consequently I spent much monger time at temp. This time I mashed for about 30 mins and then proceeded to vorlauf and lauter without much of a hitch...I guess the unmalted wheat did need that extra time. The wheat made up about 35% of my grain weight.

[Supernaut]

My lauter ran surprisingly well - I was expecting it to be slow but it was no problem. Perhaps that in itself is proof that the wheat didn't completely gelatinize?

Perhaps I should try a 2 hour mash for that much cereal?

Thanks,

John

[Pompeiisneaks]

I'm very curious to hear about this too. I've heard it said over and over that the modern Pale Malts have so much excess diastatic power that they can convert up to a 50% grain bill of unmalted grain like wheat for a wit/hefeweizen that it should never need a protein rest. Anyone with more data to help understand what's going on here?

[Jeff Lockhart]

un malted

I use flaked wheat in my wit (45% flaked wheat) and have had no problems hitting gravity. My mash is 45 min. at 150 f with a 15 min voarlauf. I do use 5 gallons of rice hulls in the mash and I think that helps with the run off. Runoff is usually 1 hr. to 1h. 15m.

It sounds like your recipe is set to high on efficiency of the un-malted portion. Dunno. What is your rated efficiency on your malt portion (fgdb)? and your un-malted ? What is your mash ph?

I have a 5.5 bbl sys. and get about 74% eff. I might miss by .1p but not more than that (yet).

Try using added enzymes.

[Supernaut]

Jeff - flaked wheat is a great idea. I wish I'd though of that before Sunday as it removes my concerns for gelatinization. Doh!!! I already use a fair amount of flaked rye.....

Mash efficiency is typically 87-88% though I don't normally break out efficiencies for different grains.

Thanks for the whack with the clue-by-four!

John

[Fullcourt]

I have heard that using 6 row malt will help with the unmalted wheat.

[redwood_]

Is use of Briess InstaGrains not an option?

[liammckenna]

Got to second the flaked wheat (pregelatinized)

Perhaps torrefied wheat?

Pax.

Liam

[BelgianBrews]

Maybe try a beta glucanase rest

It sounds to me like a beta glucanase rest would greatly help you out. Raw wheat has a lot of beta glucans, which are bound to starch in the aleurone layer of the grain. Even if you properly gelatinize your raw wheat, your beta and alpha amylase will have a limited effect at solubilizing starches because of the beta glucan starch complex; I think this explains why your gravity is low. The process of malting, particularly germination, causes a significant amount of beta glucans to break down, which is why you won't run into the same problem with malted wheat. The enzyme beta glucanase is broken down and pretty much inactivated at temperatures above 120 F, and has its best activity in the range of 98-113 F. I've never used raw wheat in such a large percentage of the total grist, so take my advice as one based on theory not practice. Good luck.

[Supernaut]

Redwood: I thought about it but they're (InstaGrains) kinda spendy and I like the flaked grains idea as I already use some with no trouble.

Liam: Agreed - flaked is the way going forward.

BelgianBrews: I went through my notes a couple weeks ago and came up with the same answer w.r.t. beta glucans. Unfortunately step mashes in my system while not impossible, are not easy.

Flaked grains (wheat and corn) it is!!

Thanks for all the feedback!

John

[beerme]

don't be scared of hydrophobia

The reason we malt barley (and other cereals) for brewing is to "modify" the starch granules in the endosperm. The endosperm is made up of starch granules in a matrix of proteins and beta glucans and other good sheisse. Unmalted it is hydrophobic, not so much scared of water, but it makes it hard for water to get at the starch molecules inside and wet them so that the enzymes can get at them.

The effect is like mixing lumpy powdered chocolate milk. if you don't break up the lumps, you get a bunch of balls that are dry inside. This prevents the chocolate powder from doing it's job, namely: tasting good. (insert your own dry balls joke here...)

The reason flaked wheat works is that when it is crushed between the rollers, it creates heat which gelatinizes the starch and allows it to dissolve into your mash solution. (torrified would work well too).

A temperature of 150'F is not hot enough to gelatinize the starch, so your enzymes can't get at it.


With a heated mash tun, I once did a cereal decoction. I mashed in all the unmalted wheat and one bag of malt, fairly tightly. The malt gave enough enzyme to break down some of the available starch, so it did not set up like cement. Then i heated the mash up to a boil while stirring, and boiled about 15 minutes. The boil gelatinized the starch from the wheat. Afterwards i mashed in the rest of the grist bill and mash liquor, aiming to come out at mash conversion temperature. The fresh enzymes from the new malt converted the starch from the wheat. I stirred it in well, had lunch while it converted, and then ran it off to the kettle.

Having said that, i formally do not advocate stirring mash with a canoe paddle, it is much more pleasant to paddle in a lake. Unpaid intern maybe...


If you can't do that, get a homebrew kettle, and gelatinize your wheat malt in it, one kettle at a time, and dump it in to your mash tun.

....or just use flaked wheat.

doug

[dfalken]

Any of you ever use wheat flour as your unmalted wheat? I've been testing a brew using it and I am getting good results flavor wise but my gravities have been "variable". Any clues/advice?

[kai]

My experiences dealing with relatively large amounts of raw wheat in a single infusion mash:

1) Whatever starch is freely available converts just fine, but...
2) Expect a large drop in efficiency, particularly factoring in the fact that...
3) Grind becomes a much bigger factor. But if you're going to grind that raw wheat fine...
4) Use rice hulls! Also...
5) Beta-glucanase helps efficiency well.

In a perfect world, I agree that the ability to step mash is the most important thing when dealing with raw wheat.

[Supernaut]

If you can't do that, get a homebrew kettle, and gelatinize your wheat malt in it, one kettle at a time, and dump it in to your mash tun.

....or just use flaked wheat.

doug

Doug - that was the first option that occurred to me but it would be a major PITA doing that with a 15 gallon homebrew kettle!

I ordered flaked wheat from my grain distributor. Sadly they can't seem to get me an analysis sheet from the grain provider but I can work on that on the side!

Thanks,

John