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Perpetual Cloudiness during Lautering

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  • Perpetual Cloudiness during Lautering

    Hello!
    We've had a problem for the past year in our brewhouse.
    We runoff beautifully clear wort for about 45 minutes and then the grain bed seems to collapse and we get about 10 minutes of really chunky wort before it clears up again for the final hour or so of the lauter.
    Some details:
    10 bbls brewhouse
    mash tun is on pillars to get it up off the ground (about 40").
    Cloudiness has happened on every brew (20P to 9P)
    Our grist to water varies (about 2.6 -3.3)
    We do brew wheat and rye beers (not always)- we do use rice hulls when we do
    we let the mash lauter via gravity for about an hour
    we turn on the pump when lauter slows down.
    no rakes.. mash in, stir again after 20, minutues, raise to mash out around 45 minutes and then rest for 15 minutes.
    we use a small pump to recirculate from under false bottom to top of grain bed during entire mash rest.
    we dont use any stirring during lautering.
    we treat our water with lactic acid and salts.

    we've tried turning the pump on before the lauter slows in case the two vessels were reaching equilibrium and that was causing the flow to collapse..no luck.

    trying a step mash tomorrow to see if maybe our mash profile isnt breaking down as many beta glucans as necessary and that is what is coming through the lauter..

    I know process questions are hard to address without actually being there but any thoughts/ideas to help us problem solve this would be appreciated.

    Thanks
    jason
    Lavery Brewing Co
    Erie, PA

  • #2
    I have the same problem too. I reliezed that if I start sparge too late, it will cause the grain bed to compress and start taking grain particle with it.

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    • #3
      Ok, thanks!
      We do usually start the sparge within 20 minutes of beginning lauter.
      maybe i'll try and start sparge almost immediately after begging lauter.

      Thanks
      Any more ideas out there?

      Comment


      • #4
        How many bbl do you run off before you start to sparge.

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        • #5
          maybe 1-2 at most.
          usually start lauter real slow and start sparging within 20 minutes or so, so probably more like 30-50 gallons....
          Last edited by LaveryBrewing; 12-27-2012, 06:13 PM.

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          • #6
            bump..
            we did a step mash on last week and same results...
            nice clear runoff for about an hour then a a barrage of chunks and sludge for about 15 minutes then cleared up for the rest of the run...
            ?

            any ideas?
            going to try and not recircing mash during sacc. rest this week and see if that helps...
            maybe we need rice hulls in every beer??

            thanks

            Comment


            • #7
              Jason,

              The stirring part is what jumps out at me as your potential issue. I have seen what you are describing resulting from stirring to aggressively. Aggressive stirring can pummel the grain. When I experienced this, it appeared that the vorlauf could only establish a weak filter bed. To remedy, I tried to keep stirring to an absolute minimum. I also reset the mill gap to account for the beating the grain experienced after the mill. I should point out that this was a single infusion mash so the stirring only took place while mashing in. I hope that helps.

              Kevin
              When all else fails, forget the hammer. It's time for explosives!

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              • #8
                Originally posted by LaveryBrewing View Post
                we let the mash lauter via gravity for about an hour
                we turn on the pump when lauter slows
                Hey Jason:

                What pump are you referring to here above, and what are you intending to accomplish with it?

                Also, do you have a grant?
                Last edited by NinkasiSwain; 12-31-2012, 04:41 AM.

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                • #9
                  NinkasiSwain is on to something. Do you have a grant or something that functions as a vacuum breaker inline between the mash tun and the kettle? If you run off too fast, maybe you're creating a vacuum as the bed settles and thickens and it "burps" to release it, upsetting the bed and sucking over some grain?
                  Russell Everett
                  Co-Founder / Head Brewer
                  Bainbridge Island Brewing
                  Bainbridge Island, WA

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    we use a small 1/25 hp pump to draw wort from under screen to top of mash. Initially started using this to get a proper strike temp but continued running throughout sacc rest to vorlauf.

                    We do not have a grant.

                    We have played with our mill gap to the point of horrible efficiency but still experienced cloudy runoff around 45 min into lauter.

                    Maybe we will only use pump to get strike water to proper temp, then give a quick mash in and not touch it for the rest.

                    Should i not be stirring while raising to mash out? Scorched grain on jackets?

                    Thoughts?

                    Thanks for input.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Do I understand you correctly? You are recirculating wort / liquor throughout the saccharification stand?

                      If you are, I consider this to be your problem. Mash in and ensure it is mixed thoroughly with the minimum agitation necessary to ensure even mixing / wetting / temperature and then LEAVE for the set time. At the end of the set time by all means recirculate for sufficient time to get the weak wort from under the mash (which should be floating, not sitting on the plates) and then run off to wort kettle. It soulds as though you are successfully destroying the bed, dragging all sorts of fines through and probably getting a poor extract utilisation into the bargain, except perhaps on fairly weak beers.

                      I saw the effects continuous agitation had in India of all places, in a lauter tun which was being stirred by discharge rakes in a lauter in the middle of the bed, not above the bed. They lifted the discharge rakes, and the problem largely resolved itself.
                      dick

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                      • #12
                        Have you checked the pH throughout ... no rise at all? Worked at a plant where the water was really hard and acidified for mash-in, the HLT wasn't and would get cloudy worts towards the end. Checked pH when it went cloudy and was way over 6
                        Head Brewer Rocks Brewing Co.
                        Sydney, Aust
                        scotty@rocksbrewing.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Dick you are correct that we do recirc throughout the rest.
                          The pump is very small and we didnt think (key word 'think') it would compact bed too much.
                          We are going to let rest without any recirc during rest and then just enough to clear wort.

                          We do check our pH at beginning and end and also make sure entire HLT volume is properly acidified.

                          Thanks for the input guys.
                          Next brew is tomorrow so ill keep you updated on progress.

                          Thanks!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            We had this problem when we first started using our 12 hl system. Our lauter tun bottom was a gentle cone. Fine particles would migrate through the bed at a certain point and, when they started to build up on the bottom, they would slide down and end up in the runnings. We put a short standpipe in the drain now. Fines still accumulate on the bottom of the lauter tun but they stay put and our late runnings are much better.

                            Conrad Gmoser

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                            • #15
                              This too sounds like it could be our problem...
                              Will try to just not stir tomorrow and then, if needed, add a standpipe to the mash tun next week.
                              Thanks for the input!

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