Kolsch Yeast Flocculation Madness!

[Bainbridge]

So we use Wyeast 2575 Kolsch II for our Kolsch and I love the character it gives, but it definitely shows 'low' flocculation. Problem is, there's 'low' and there's 'NO'. It's still very cloudy in the FV, even after 10 days cold and fined. Thing is, if you pour it in a glass and leave it in the cold room, and even just out on the bench, within a couple hours it drops crystal clear. After a day in kegs, it's cloudy for the first pint or two of chunder but then crystal clear. It seems to flocc everywhere but in the conical... and it's driving me crazy!!!

We've tried:
Crashing from 62 to 34 as quick as possible, and also over several days.
Yeast on its 6th generation and on its first.
Fining the 10bbl batches with 10 oz gelatin (shot up the racking arm, then mixed with co2), and with 60ml/bbl Biofine CL (pump loop cone-racking arm for 30 minutes).
Head pressures from 2-8 psi.

It's not chill haze. Nuking a glass didn't clear it up and the microscope confirms that it's just tons of yeast still in suspension.

I'm wondering why it drops clear everywhere but the FV. Head pressure is zero in a glass, and 13psi in a keg. Temp is 40 in the cold room, 62 in the brewhouse. Maybe it has something to do with the temp of the FV? But 34-35 is pretty standard and works fine on our US and British strains...

Any thoughts?

[brewmaster 2011]

Have you tryed to fine it in the Brite tank?

[KaskaskiaBrew]

We've had issues like this in the past where the beers won't clear up and honestly we have no clue why it happens from batch to batch. See this post I had a while back: http://discussions.probrewer.com/sho...y-beer-problem

We will have yeast generation 4 flocculate in 7 days extremely clear then generation 5 will take forever and generation 6 will be clear again. It's baffling. Since we don't filter our beers or use some sort of fining agent we were concerned when the beers wouldn't drop bright. We did the same tests where we put samples in glass jars and kegs and both clear up much much faster than the conical's do. We ended up with 1 of 2 solutions and neither one of them really figured out the problem and neither one is the best scenario if you're in a pinch but here is what works for us.

First option is to just give it more time. I know this seems like a terrible option in a pinch but in our beers that don't come out clear right away, we will leave it for 3-4 weeks in the conical for it to drop bright. The yeast seems to really stick to the cone walls sometimes too and in that case, we proceed to option 2.

The second option was to use our brite tanks as aging tanks. Since they are straight walled, they do a fantastic job of clearing up the beer compared to the conical fermenters. We will often leave the beer in the brite tanks for up to 2 weeks and most of the time within a week or so they are crystal clear.

Sorry this doesn't fix the problem but it at least gives you some hope that you can get the beers to clear up.

Cheers,

[Bainbridge]

Thanks guys. Yeah we don't have the tanks to let things sit for weeks upon weeks. In the past the Kolsch got four weeks start to finish and I'm trying to get it to three. (A five day ferment, two weeks cold, transfer and carb, rest in the brite overnight, and rack.)

Our brite is dish bottomed, with no racking arm. So fining isn't really an option in it. We're considering jury-rigging a racking arm out of the sampling port though.

I think the real solution might be to get around to fixing and using our old 40x40 plate filter, but it's so cloudy I worry about it just gunking up the pads. A sample of the settled yeast from a quarter cup of beer was a solid mass of cells under the microscope.

[eoconnor101]

The White Labs Kolsch yeast WLP029 drops very quickly at 36-40 degrees. I haven't tried the Wyeast out but I was very happy with the beer produced by the WLP strain fermented from 60-64.

But I completely understand not wanting to switch from your favorites, even if it's a pain. I refuse to stop using the WLP570 Belgian strain even though it takes weeks to clear....

[Rooh]

fining

Try fining on the way to the BBT ( we use biofine cl). Put a stand pipe in the BBT, we put ours at !/2 bbl in our 15 bbl BBT. Put a tee inline after pump, inject with Co2, periodically, insuring good mix. Carbonate immediately, keep as cold as possible for two days, beer will be uber bright.

[Bierkoenig]

I'm wondering why it drops clear everywhere but the FV.

The reason it clears quickly in a glass and not in the tank is distance. In the glass, the cells need only fall a few inches. In the tank it's several feet and that takes a lot longer. This is a problem with low flocculating strains and unfiltered beers--if you keg that beer off, it's going to fine out in a week because of the shorter distance to fall in the keg. You then end up with kegs that have a bunch of sediment on the bottom that will either get stirred up in trade, or blow out a bunch of yeast when the customer starts to pour it. It's a real headache. We use WLP029 on a number of beers and tried every fining agent, process and trick their is, but could never get a consistent result or prevent continued (accelerated) fining action in the keg. We now own a lenticular filter and all is copacetic.

[Bainbridge]

@Bierkonig - That's definitely a part of it. Something interesting we noticed shows me something else might be going on too.

Last week we pulled two samples out of a new batch that had just finished fermenting. One sample was placed in the cold room at 40, and one was placed at room temp, 62, which incidentally was fermentation temp. The next day the one at room temp was crystal clear, while the one in the cold room was still cloudy. I'm wondering if the yeast just need a little more time warm to build up their glycogen reserves and whatnot, before they start to flocc out. Or whether exposure to the open air is helping somehow, like they are scrubbing O2 for some purpose that makes them happy to drop out. So we're doing a little experiment right now. Normally I would have crashed that beer on Thursday and fined on Friday, but we're going to let it hang out at 62 until Monday and see if it's any better with some more warm time, then hard crash it and see if it's any better on Tuesday and give it another day or two before fining. In the meantime hopefully the spare parts for my plate filter should arrive...

[Chadgregory87]

Hey BainBridge. I know it has been years since this post about your kolsch style flocculation/clarifying issue but I'm intrigued as I am now experiencing every single aspect of what you went/go through, clearing up faster in kegs, especially in slims even more in growlers overnight. I'm curious to know if letting the beer sit at fermentation temp for a few extra days help with the flocculation. Or if you found the perfect solution!? We don't use any filter or clarifying agents at the brewery but I'm on the verge of buying a filter just for this one beer.
Would appreciate any advice! Thanks!

[Bainbridge]

Hah, yeah... It's been three years but since then:

- We switched to the much more cooperative White Labs Kolsch strain.
- Fining at 75ml/bbl with Biofine Clear.
- I repaired that old filter we'd bought before the brewery opened but never actually used.

Crystal clear Kolsch is no longer a problem.

[Chadgregory87]

Awesome. Very good to know. I will give the white labs strain a try.
Thank you!