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Diacetyl from Dry Hopping?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by AnthonyB View Post
    Kind of straying off topic but have you seen the IPA Book from Mitch Steele? He goes through a number of historic UK recipes that seem excessive even by current American craft brewer standards. I attended his presentation at this year's Craft Brewers Conference and I was once again reminded how interesting some of those recipes sounded.... but then after I heard the part where the beers were cellared for 10+ months... my interest sort of waned
    No. I have not heard of this. Thanks I'll have a look. Cheers

    But I know that the genuine IPAs were heavily hopped, but hadn't seen any indication of the old hop rates. One of the problems of course is that old hops used to have much much lower alpha acids, so kettle hops rates would have to be considerably higher to get the equivalent IBUs in the beer. Having brewed with a batch at 1.8 % alpha hops (god knows where they found those), they added a real fullness to the flavour (though definitely not DMS type flavours, just a different richness), that once we had used that batch up nearly had me going to the local market and picking up a load of old cabbages to throw into the kettle. Of course no-one really knows what the old hops had in the way of hop oil to give the zingy character of dry hopping. The old recipes I have seen don't do late hopping let alone dry hopping, though trying to decipher old brewery records is interesting enough in its own right.

    And of course, the genuine IPAs that got out to India were shipped the long way round, in what wouldn't normally be considered good storage conditions, to say the least. Have you read Pete Brown's book on IPA. Not totally convinced by his style of writing, but some interesting stuff.
    dick

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    • #17
      infection?

      Pediococcus can create diacetyl...maybe the warm dry hopping is promoting some growth. I dry hop at 35F only and never have any problems with infection or getting everything out of the hops. And typically only dry hop for 7 days...ten at the most.
      Cheers
      Jay Stoyanoff
      Brewmaster
      Plattsburgh Brewing Co.
      Plattsburgh, NY

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      • #18
        Diacetyl from Dry Hopping?

        Kara Taylor from White Labs gave a talk on this very subject at the MBAA conference in Austin last month entitled "Relationships between dry hopped beers and diacetyl formation". You may want to contact her about her research.


        Alan Stiles
        Head Brewer
        Phantom Canyon Brewing Company
        Colorado Springs, CO

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Alan Stiles View Post
          Kara Taylor from White Labs gave a talk on this very subject at the MBAA conference in Austin last month entitled "Relationships between dry hopped beers and diacetyl formation". You may want to contact her about her research.


          Alan Stiles
          Head Brewer
          Phantom Canyon Brewing Company
          Colorado Springs, CO
          We were not aware of this but are in touch with Kara quite frequently so we'll drop her a line. Thanks.

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          • #20
            What is the OG of said dry hopped beer, and how many generations are you running the 007?
            I too love that strain, and while I haven't had diacetyl issues, I have noticed that after many (12-26) repitchings into wort 16P+, it will mutate and not flocculate as reliably, and will have a harder time reaching terminal gravity, diacetyl production would go hand in hand with these issues.
            Fighting ignorance and apathy since 2004.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by drewseslu View Post
              What is the OG of said dry hopped beer, and how many generations are you running the 007?
              I too love that strain, and while I haven't had diacetyl issues, I have noticed that after many (12-26) repitchings into wort 16P+, it will mutate and not flocculate as reliably, and will have a harder time reaching terminal gravity, diacetyl production would go hand in hand with these issues.
              The O.G. was 1.043 (yeah I don't use Plato), so not very high. And we never have issues reaching terminal, and frequently get even lower than we actually want with this yeast. We typically restart with fresh yeast after around 12 gens.

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              • #22
                Update on this issue. Kara at White Labs told me that so far her conclusions on this subject were far from complete and she's still looking for samples for her research.

                On our end we have concluded that it is NOT diacetyl because now that several months have gone by with this batch in kegs, the diacetyl-like flavor and aroma has all but disappeared and now it's clean and hoppy. If it were actually diacetyl this would not happen. So now the question is what is this displeasing off-flavor that comes from dry hopping with centennial type(cascade/columbus) hop pellets?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Judd View Post
                  Update on this issue. Kara at White Labs told me that so far her conclusions on this subject were far from complete and she's still looking for samples for her research.

                  On our end we have concluded that it is NOT diacetyl because now that several months have gone by with this batch in kegs, the diacetyl-like flavor and aroma has all but disappeared and now it's clean and hoppy. If it were actually diacetyl this would not happen. So now the question is what is this displeasing off-flavor that comes from dry hopping with centennial type(cascade/columbus) hop pellets?
                  Super interested to hear the findings in Kara's study as well as what you figure out! Please follow up the thread with any updates!

                  Good luck!
                  Kyle Kohlmorgen
                  Process/Automation Consultant
                  St. Louis, MO

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                  • #24
                    Try a couple things:
                    A new hop supplier for that particular hop variety
                    A diacetyl test before lowering to 60°F
                    Leaving your blow off arm open for a half to full day after dry hopping to drive off any O2 that was introduced.
                    I highly doubt it's oxidation from the hop addition. It's more than likely a character of the hop or improperly packaged hops.
                    Just my $0.02
                    Cheers,
                    Greg

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                    • #25
                      I've noticed this diacetyl like flavor in heavily dry hopped IPAs also. Primarily Simcoe for some reason. Actually, we have a keg of Green Flash Palate Wrecker on right now that I think tastes like diacetyl. I think it may be the hopping.

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                      • #26
                        A couple of thoughts

                        I understand many people put unfiltered beer into kegs (certainly I have found this in Canada - never been to the States), whereas in the UK we would use casks, and no top pressure facility. This means the beer will contain yeast, which gradually converts the diacetyl to acetoin (primarily) which does not have the same flavour as diacetyl - reputedly without discernible flavour. So the diacetyl could slowly disappear under these conditions, i.e. a slower version of warm maturation / diacetyl rest.

                        Secondly if you are not sure what diacetyl tastes / smell like, get some taste training compounds from Flavor-Activ
                        dick

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                        • #27
                          Let your temp ramp up more after 3 days of fermentation. After 48 hours the yeast won't produce any fruity character so I would suggest ramping up to 70-72 degrees after 3 days while there's still some activity and will reduce any diacetyl.

                          To rule out the hops theory- get a pack of lite beer (miller, bud, coors) bottles, uncap the bottles and dry hop the bottles with the hops your using for the problem beer. Then you can test if it is indeed a hop problem.

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                          • #28
                            Same problems

                            We were experiencing the same problems with our IPA. We us 1056 yeast and don't have the issue with any of our non-dryhopped beer. We speculated for a time on whether it was the hops or process. It was frustrating for sure. Our solution to the issue was to change the hop variety we were using (we eliminated all centennial hop and only use cascade and chinook) as well as change the temperature during dry hopping. We found the problem of perceived diacetyl to go away. Of course the issue here is we changed two things at the same time so no definitive answer exists for us. My speculation leans more towards the temperature during the dry hop. When we were getting diacetyl we were crashing the same day we dry hopped. We changed to a schedule that stays at a diacetyl rest temp of 70F for a minimum of four days after adding the dry hop. We drop temp at the end of day 4 as long as no diacetyl is detected from a forced diacetyl test. We've found this to work. I am curious about the centennials and will most likely be doing an experiment with them to determine there role in the issue.

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                            • #29
                              You dont have to worry about any hops giving you diacetyl specifically centennial since Bells Two Hearted IPA is a all centennial beer. I dry hop my house ipa with centennial too and never have a problem with it at all. The big thing is letting the beer warm up and letting the yeast clean up the diacetyl. Most brewers will tell you to dry hop warmer anyway. I know personally that Lagunitas dry hops at 70 deg and I do my beers the same way. After the dry hop time is over then cold crash it down and you will be great. Hope that helps some.

                              Ben
                              Ben Pugh
                              Meddlesome Brewing Company
                              Memphis, TN

                              Eclectic Ales
                              Memphis, Tn

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                              • #30
                                Diacetyl

                                This is a problem in big dry hopped beers. I've experienced it as a professional brewer and have tasted other breweries IPA's that had diacetyl problems that they were unaware of. So from my experience and from a friend of mine who is the Master Brewer at one of the top craft breweries in the US, have discovered that by dry hopping after the initial fermentation the hops will agitate the yeast which in turn start to ferment again and will produce VDK and diacetyl formation. I have experienced better aromatic results by dry hopping right off the bat anyway. Some hops will put off a similar aroma to diacetyl too. ----I have a theory : that with all the dry hops mixed in the fermenter with the yeast, that the hops will block some of the surface area of the yeast which in turn will not allow the yeast to fully re-absorb diacetyl during the diacetyl rest. To remedy this I added an extra day for the rest and it worked really well. Did have a problem though, when adding an extra day it was hard to not go below the intended terminal gravity. These Chico like strains do not flocculate well and want to keep going. So to troubleshoot that we did better harvesting methods to ensure genetically superior and healthy yeast; started to bung about a full plato earlier to add some extra pressure and slow the yeast down. Also just being as diligent as possible in the cellar. These IPA's are a real challenge which is why I appreciate a good one so much. ------ Cheers

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