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Head retention problems with our belgian white ale

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  • Head retention problems with our belgian white ale

    Anyone want to share some ideas as to why we are having head retention issues? We are using fresh grated sour orange peel, fresh coriander, chamomile (both fresh flowers and tea bags), unmalted wheat and flaked oats. My guess is maybe oil from the oranges, the chamomile or the coriander is messing up our head? Thanks in advance for the help.

    Disclaimer: We've never had head retention issues with any of our other beers. We are currently on our third batch of our seasonal belgian white. The second batch was able to retain the head somewhat, the first and third batches lose the head entirely in a short amount of time. Carbonation is good at 2.8 volumes and a good head is produced when pouring it but it completely dissipates soon thereafter.

  • #2
    Never had a problem with "oils" from orange peel. Especially since Wit is high in wheat. Suggest it may be a carbonation problem. Never force more CO2 into the beer than will dissipate without foaming in the BBT. Other than that, oats do have some lipids that could potentially deteriorate head, but I've never seen it in low doses. Pay close attention to your carbonation process. Many folks don't do it very well and kill whatever proteins are left to create bubbles. Remember that foam only happens once, and you want that in the customers' glass. Good luck!
    Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

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    • #3
      Thanks for your response Phillip and for starting the discussion. I don't think it is a carbonation issue. This is beer is more carbonated (2.8 volumes) than the rest of our beers (2.65) and we carbonate it in our brite through the stone just like we do all others. In fact it is not a problem with head production. When we pour the beer into a glass it forms plenty of head, the problem is that it dissipates quickly and it dissipates entirely, leaving the beer looking like iced tea (no foam stays on the sides of the glass and not traces of foam are visible on the surface of the beer). The beer tastes great and it is carbonated (mouthfeel) but is simply retains zero head. We are using about 10% flaked oats, do you think lipids in the oats could be causing the issue? Could the coriander, the fresh chamomille flowers or the chamomille tea bags be culprits?

      Only other difference with the rest of our beers is that this is the only beer that we produce that uses Safale - T58, we mostly use US-05. I can't imagine the yeast being the culprit. On our first batch I thought we underpitched and I've read thac can cause head retention issues but I am certain we haven't underpitched now.

      Thanks again for your help and any other comments you can add.

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      • #4
        A outside chance here but I have seen it before is what is the condition of the glass you are pouring it into? Dirty glassware and or poor chemicals can strip the head off a beer. Just a long shot as you seem to be quite troubled with this.

        Cheers
        Mike Eme
        Brewmaster

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        • #5
          Head rentention and pH...

          Check your pH. It may be that a potentially tart style like Wit could fall outside of prime pH for head retention.... Don't ask me right now what that number is. On assignment without my reference books, but you could/should find out and check that.
          Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

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          • #6
            Originally posted by beerguy1 View Post
            A outside chance here but I have seen it before is what is the condition of the glass you are pouring it into? Dirty glassware and or poor chemicals can strip the head off a beer. Just a long shot as you seem to be quite troubled with this.

            Cheers
            thanks for your response but I know it is not a glassware issue as all our other beers have excellent head retention.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by gitchegumee View Post
              Check your pH. It may be that a potentially tart style like Wit could fall outside of prime pH for head retention.... Don't ask me right now what that number is. On assignment without my reference books, but you could/should find out and check that.
              Thanks Phillip we are going to check our pH and we have also reduced the amount of oats from around 10% of grist to around 5%, if nothing else it will make our run-off much easier! We've had some nasty runoffs with this beer, gluten is like cement it has even completely clogged our pipes!

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              • #8
                Very curious to see the results here. The only time I've ever experienced anything like this is with a Berliner, but that's expected because of the pH.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by FiveMile View Post
                  Very curious to see the results here. The only time I've ever experienced anything like this is with a Berliner, but that's expected because of the pH.
                  We checked ph of our batch in primary fermentation today and it was 4.3 so at least up until now that doesnt seem to be the culprit. We'll see what happens later in fermentation. It does sound like a feasible culprit as we are using fresh sour orange peel which i guess adds acidity. Do you guys know how low would the ph have to be in order to determine it as the root cause? As i thin i mentioned before, we lowered the oats to 5% of grist from its original 10% so we'll see if that helps out.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CaliBrewery530
                    I've seen plenty of ales in the pH range below 3.5 that was fine on head retention. I really doubt this is the culprit. You are having a problem with surface tension and protein levels it sounds like. A few questions and we might be able to narrow it down ...

                    1) are you doing a single or a step infusion? What temp ranges are you working with respectively and how long are you holding your rests?

                    2) are your malts modified or unmodified

                    3) whats your ratio/% in your malt bill

                    Cheers!
                    sorry it took me so long to respond and thanks for offering your help.

                    We are doing a single infusion at 152F and holding for 1 hour.
                    Our malts are modified, base malt is 2 row barley.
                    Malt bill is:

                    50% base malt
                    37% unmalted wheat
                    9% flaked oats
                    5% munich

                    This beer also has fresh gratings of sour orange peel, coriander and chamomille (some fresh some from tea bags)

                    We don't have any head issues with any of our other beers and we brew a wheat ale which has a similar malt bill with the exception of the oats. The wheat ale is 60% 2 row and 40% unmalted wheat.

                    Let me know if you need any more info. And thanks again for your help.

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                    • #11
                      I`m sure this problem causing oat flakes. In oat malt lipid content is about 5%, not sure about flakes.

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                      • #12
                        Glycol Aginate

                        Some larger breweries in the UK reportedly use Propolyne Glycol Alginate to aid in head retention. It prevents lipids from entering the foam bubble walls and breaking them. So for the purpose of elimination, you could get your hands on some PGA and appropriately dose a growler or sixtel and check to see how the foam behaves. If it solves the issue, then you know that your problem is most likely a higher amount of lipid content in your product. That could be due to too much cold and/or hot break making its way into the fermenter, and/or leaving the beer on the trub too long after fermentation. PGA is supposedly safe to consume and is reportedly used rather widely, but I don't think that the average American craft beer enthusiast would be happy to know that they are ingesting it.
                        Hope this helps and best of luck!
                        Cheers,
                        Greg

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                        • #13
                          Problem solved, thanks to all of you!

                          I really appreciate the time you guys took to present your ideas on solving this problem, this is part of what makes craft brewing great. It turns out that the problem was almost definitely the lipid content of oats. Our grain bill started out with 10% flaked oats and we were having head retention issues. On the last brew of our wit we cut the oat amount in half for a 5% grain bill contribution and it now has a beautiful white creamy head with even better retention than our all malt brews. The change in flavor is basically unnoticeable. It might have lost a tiny bit of the softness to the palate that oats provide but hardly. Thanks again!

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by dfalken View Post
                            I really appreciate the time you guys took to present your ideas on solving this problem, this is part of what makes craft brewing great. It turns out that the problem was almost definitely the lipid content of oats. Our grain bill started out with 10% flaked oats and we were having head retention issues. On the last brew of our wit we cut the oat amount in half for a 5% grain bill contribution and it now has a beautiful white creamy head with even better retention than our all malt brews. The change in flavor is basically unnoticeable. It might have lost a tiny bit of the softness to the palate that oats provide but hardly. Thanks again!
                            what did you use in place of the 5% oats? have you thought about using carapils for around 2.5%?

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                            • #15
                              Sub out the oats for flaked barley, you should have great head and still get the starch for your wit.

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