CO2 draw issues with a bulk tank

[Jesse Shue]

We have been dealing with an issue of our bulk CO2 supply not being fast enough to keep up with our mobile bottler's six head Meheen filler.
We have a newly installed 750 pound bulk CO2 tank. I am assuming that it should be able to keep up with a six head filler that bottles maybe a couple cases a minute. My question is, is that assumption mistaken? Should I continue to hunt for an answer somewhere between our bulk CO2 tank and the supply line, or just give up, and order extra 50 pound CO2 bottles for bottling days?
Thanks,
Jesse Shue
Brewmaster
Golden Valley Brewery

[brewmaster 2011]

Are you using the co2 for the pneumatic? if so you need to get an air compressor that is where you are losing all the co2 too.

[DowneastCider]

Without knowing the details it is hard to say but I can tell you from our experience a 750 lbs tank (MVE Carbo Mizer) can keep up with a Cask canning line (30 cans a minute), IDD keg machine (20-25 kegs per hour, CO2 feeding into a 1/2 bbl keg kept at 50 psi), head pressure on the brite, and the occasional purging of a tank. Our smaller 550 lbs tank has a lower flow rate and would freeze up from time to time if the demand got too high. The 750 has had no trouble.

Check to make sure you are not leaking CO2 anywhere or using way to much for packaging.

[lhall]

When we ran a 2001 6-head Meheen we had two 750's in parallel to try to keep up, at about 70 cases an hour. If we were also trying to carb a brite the tanks would tend to ice up and the flow would drop off. We would wash them down with hot water and put a heat lamp by the regulator.

[TGTimm]

Is your bulk tank icing up? You may need to get a heater blanket for it, a heated regulator, and/or an evaporator. With our 500 lb Dewars, we use an improvised evaporator, which is simply two 50' coils of 1/2" soft copper tubing, plumbed in parallel, in one of our cooling system glycol backs. This keeps the gas flowing and helps keep the glycol cool.

We have no problem running 3,000 bottles/hr in a GAI 3003 on a single 500 lb Dewar, with various other draws going on.

As someone mentioned above, you should not be using CO2 for the pneumatic systems. Not only is this very expensive, it's potentially dangerous. The risks of CO2 pooling and suffocation should not be discounted.

[Jesse Shue]

We are not using CO2 for the pneumatics, nor is the tank being used for purging or counter-pressure. We have a separate cylinder for those.
The only other draw on this bulk tank during our bottlings is pushing 8 beer lines in a relatively slow pub, and likely some tiny leaks in a Grundy or two.

[mikeyrb1]

We are not using CO2 for the pneumatics, nor is the tank being used for purging or counter-pressure. We have a separate cylinder for those.
The only other draw on this bulk tank during our bottlings is pushing 8 beer lines in a relatively slow pub, and likely some tiny leaks in a Grundy or two.

We've run into the same problems when filtering (we push with CO2 over a long run up a level) and when bottling on a 4 head. Our supplier advised us to get a "vaporizer" which we rent for about $20 a month. It has definitely helped reduce the lines freezing up. We do however still have a problem with keeping two regulators going when filtering.

[Matt Dog]

You can look into CO2 heaters to go inline before the regulator. We had a small one installed for $2oo or so that runs 100 CFH and it helps but we are putting in a larger CALCO Heater ($1000) that will run 1000 CFH. We have problems running our keg and bottling lines simultaneously. The purge cycle on the kegwasher is what really kills us. Purging and pressurizing three 1/2'bbls at a time pulls a lot of gas quickly. Also we generally fill kegs as we clean so keeping head pressure on the tank is another draw. Beyond the heaters you have to get into vaporizers which are also pricey, but as stated above you can usually rent them.

[beerguy1]

We run the exact same system as the OP and have never had an issue. We contract our CO2 delivery thru NUCO2 and they provided a Hi flow regulator. It does get ice when we are carbonating a tank but flow is great. I would contact your CO2 distributor he should be able to provide a solution

[TGTimm]

I forgot about the high-flow primary regulator. After our vaporizer/evaporator, the two 1/2" coils unite into a single 3/4" line, then go to the primary regulator--a Rego 1788CE. A 3/4" trunk serves the main ferm hall, with 1/2" drops to point-of-use secondary regulators. These aren't high-flow regulators, just Norgren R74 series with CO2 compatible innards. All these regulators are rebuildable, just be sure you get the CO2 kits. The primary reg. needs rebuilding every few years, as the high-pressure CO2 eventually permeates the rubber parts, causing them to swell and burst if the supply pressure gets too low. The reg. can be easily rebuilt (<10 min) in place if it's located in an accessible place.

We generally don't clean kegs while bottling due to manpower. This set-up provides enough gas to push a transfer, run the bottling line (with CO2 push from the bright), push the 8 taps for the pub, and anything else we need to do.

[BrewinLou]

Co2

That is a great idea Tim.

[wailingguitar]

Not sure if this will help, but worth looking into. I had a supply issue off my 750# tank, the tank acted like it was empty or nearly empty and the gauges were prone to icing. Airgas sent a tech out and he said "you have the wrong regulator on the tank". HUH? Well, he changed it in about 5 minutes and problem solved.

[Matt Dog]

Obviously you need a high flow regulator. But even a high flow regulator wont tolerate liquid CO2 hence the need for heaters and/or vaporizers where heavy draws are happening. If you see liquid CO2 in your lines (looks just like water) you are drawing too fast to get by with a highflow regulator. Unless you place the regulator far enough downstream with copper coils or other rigs before the regulator as mentioned above.

[cpelz]

As a point of reference, last I checked MVE's (now Chart's) Carbo-Max 750 has a higher output than their Carbo-Mizer 750 (continuous draw of 15#/hr vs. 10#/hr my notes say.)

At my last gig, before switching to true bulk, we ran 2 pre-Chart MVE 750 mini-bulks in parallel feeding a 1/2" copper line. ~90' of that line was plumbed in an "S" configuration mounted on the boiler room wall as an evaporator. This fed a Rego 1784A regulator with 1/2' copper outlet feeding 1/4" tank drop downs. I think we went 1/2" directly to the BMS Bulldog kegger. At 6,000 bbl/yr. in kegs this didn't always keep up, with freezing at the mini-bulk tanks the usual problem, sometimes at the Rego.

I see Chart offers the VaporMan 125; I never really looked into it, but the idea of an industrial-grade vaporizer has some appeal.

[Jesse Shue]

Thanks for the replies. It was a regulator.