Vapor Condensors

[Dancing Camel]

I'm trying to get the good the bad & the ugly on kettle vapor condensors as an alternative to a vertical stack. Pricing, technical requirements, consumables, etc. I've also been reading about their utility in saving heating costs - does that really work out to a savings on a small scale operation? We're using a 10 bbl steam heated system. In short, does it pay? (The alternative is a ~15' horizontal run and ~35'vertical run for a conventional stack).

Thanks

David

[brewer2001]

Some observations

David,

I have noticed that most of the breweries that employ stack condensors tend to carry a slight amount of DMS in their product. But that can also happen with a mild boil. Most of the stacks are too short and not directed downward leaving the condensate to fall back into the brew.

A second point is that most of these systems are "sealed" kettles which tends to build a large amount of pressure in the vessel. This may help to increase the boil temperature but not allow the volitiles escape from the kettle. If you use "high quality" well modified malt it may not be much of a problem and just be part of your "house character". One system I worked on kept blowing the lamps in the kettle due to steam/water being forced behind the protective lens...just a pain.

I am not sure if this will help your efficency of operation, but the greater amount of volitiles you can purge from the kettle the better the beer will be and give you the lattitude to use a variety of malts and still attain the correct flavor profile.

I have been watching you posts...I give you a lot of credit. I spent time in the Middle East and it is not forgiving on beer.

Good brewing,

Tom F.

[damoller]

Condensate stack

I used one in a brew pub and not only dealt with the above concerns but also a very low evaporation rate due to the increased humidity in the kettle(also the brew house). In 90 minute I could only evaporate <5% total!

[Alex T]

hi,

i have discussed these with steinecker in the past. a "properly" engineered vapour condensor is guaranteed not to impact on the quality of the beer - steinecker quote no impact on DMS values with their vapour condensor design. there should be no condensate dripping back into the kettle with an engineered solution - all should go to drain.

however, steinecker (and the like) are very expensive, and do not do any brewing systems less than 50HL. from the prices i have seen, an engineered system for a 50HL brewhouse is around $150k. and, to make it pay for itself in 3-5yrs, (depending on your cost of energy!!), the brewhouse needs to be operating almost on a 24hr basis.

for the energy calc, use can approx 2500kJ/kg water vapour (i.e. how many kg of water do you evaporate, assume you condense this water and re-gain most of the energy to generate hot liquor). This figure from memory, you should check this in the steam tables, assume steam saturated at ~100degC and atmospheric pressure. don't have a book handy, but i can get the exact figures if you like.

i don't have any experience with the smaller varieties you see from time to time in small breweries.

cheers,

alex

[nohandslance]

condensor energy savings

If you are producing >3 brews/perday the stack condensor is a very important tool to your energy recycling and reducing program. We can transfer the excess heat loss from boil to domestic H20 through shell and tube condensor which we recycle through our transfer lines for sanitation (>82degrees C), then to HLT (Hot Liquor Tank) for subsequent brews. A savings on both reheat of domestic water and reduce of sanitizer use. A stack with proper tube shell design with domestic H20 recycle and excess vapour blow off will give you suffficient evaporation and nominal reintroduction of condensate to your kettle with a minimal of 70min boil. I highly recommend the stack if you are in a area where kettle boil aroma to the surrounding community is an issue or you are wanting to lower the energy and sanitation cost of your operation.

[Dancing Camel]

I would say that my priorities in looking at the vapor condensor were firstly, as a cost effective alternative to running a conventional vent stack (given that I am on the ground floor of a 3 story industrial building with no opportunity for a straight vertical run) and secondly, but also important so I don't have to trip over myself apologizing to city hall over brewery smells.

Am I understanding correctly then, that the cost of a vapor condensor will be substantially higher than that of a conventional stack (even when adding in the exhaust for the long horizontal run)? Anybody care to hazard a guess as to the cost for a condensor properly sized for a 10 bbl system?

Thanks.

David

[welder420]

David,
I have been making good condensors for are systems now for about 10 years now and they work really well if there are sized right. If you have any questions feel free to contact me at 858-775-8691.


Cheers
Jeff

[beertje46]

I would say that my priorities in looking at the vapor condensor were firstly, as a cost effective alternative to running a conventional vent stack (given that I am on the ground floor of a 3 story industrial building with no opportunity for a straight vertical run) and secondly, but also important so I don't have to trip over myself apologizing to city hall over brewery smells.

Am I understanding correctly then, that the cost of a vapor condensor will be substantially higher than that of a conventional stack (even when adding in the exhaust for the long horizontal run)? Anybody care to hazard a guess as to the cost for a condensor properly sized for a 10 bbl system?

Thanks.

David

I have a used condensor I removed from my 30 bbl. kettle. It was undersized for a thirty but would be great on a ten. Drop me a PM if you are interested.

[Dancing Camel]

So we're down to the wire on a vapor condensor - the overwhelming response is to avoid it if you can, particularly for a small brewery (on a <$150,000 vapor condensor budget). The primary concern seems to be evaporation rate. So one thought was to add Fermcap or other anti-foam agent to the kettle, allowing me to brew with the kettle door closed and still avoid a boilover. Wanted to see if anyone with a condensor has been able to get their evaporation rate up by doing this (without making a mess of the kettle).

Other concern is that I'm looking at one that is a spray type, where ground water is sprayed at the vapor and the cooling water and condensate then drip out together. I was wondering if anyone else uses this type and if there is any use for the combined cooling water/condensate? 5 gallons of ground water per minute for a one hour boil seems like a lot of water to waste. Can the water at least be used for cleaning tanks/kegs/etc?

Thx.

David

[damoller]

Thats what I used!

So we're down to the wire on a vapor condensor - the overwhelming response is to avoid it if you can, particularly for a small brewery (on a <$150,000 vapor condensor budget). The primary concern seems to be evaporation rate. So one thought was to add Fermcap or other anti-foam agent to the kettle, allowing me to brew with the kettle door closed and still avoid a boilover. Wanted to see if anyone with a condensor has been able to get their evaporation rate up by doing this (without making a mess of the kettle).

Other concern is that I'm looking at one that is a spray type, where ground water is sprayed at the vapor and the cooling water and condensate then drip out together. I was wondering if anyone else uses this type and if there is any use for the combined cooling water/condensate? 5 gallons of ground water per minute for a one hour boil seems like a lot of water to waste. Can the water at least be used for cleaning tanks/kegs/etc?

Thx.

David

See my previous post!

[Todd]

condensate stack

Using a condensate stack for a ten barrel system would be my recommendation. If used properly, you will have more consistant evaporation rates as you will be reducing barometric pressure changes, you will drive off unwanted volitles or DMS precusors, you will reduce emissions and unwanted smells from your neighborhood.
I would not recommend recycling the water for any product or product related cleaning. If you are in a water use restricted area you may want to think again on purchasing a condensate stack or reuse the water after a carefull analysis. If you are only doing one turn a day (one boil) you won't be using too much water. Your spec for water usage seems high. Is this a properly engineered stack or a handcrafted at the brewery stack? I would recommend a ninety minute boil with very vigorous action. You may also want to have some ventalation of the brewhouse area as the condensate stack may not capture all of your steam emissions from the kettle making it very hot to work around. I would definately use fermcap in your boils to reduce the risk of boil overs.

cheers :

[Larry Horwitz]

Watch out...there are lots of companies out there selling "stack units" with coils or water spray assemblies that are waaaaayyyy too small to do the job. If your fab company can't show you the enginneering, don't buy from them. an appropriately sized unit is big, and expensive. Before they went tits up Beraplan had a great unit that also recovered energy....I'd check into those guys (now braukahn and roleck). The Stine unit is most likely good too, but all of the good ones will cost you way more than a flue.