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  • Brewpub Startup Questions

    I have gathered information for a while now, but still have some questions I can't gather without asking it appears. I appreciate any help.

    1) I have found it should cost around $100-$150/sqft. to renovate a brewpub. Obviously the figure depends on what you exactly doing and what the building had already. With this in mind, does anyone have a more real number and does that include everything with exception to the brewery aspect?

    2) I want to do a 10bbl. system with 1x 20bbl fermenter (to save space), 3 x 10 bbl. fermenters and 2 x 5 bbl. fermenters. I know the 2 x 5 bbl. ferementers will take up more space, which is why I want the 20 bbl. to take that space back. I want to do the 5bbl. fermenters for versatility in case I want to split a batch, doing a first and seconds runnings only or if I want to do a in-fermenter treatment to half the batch only. I will have a 10bbl. brite tank to keg off of. Do you see any problems? Also, would it be possible to only do a 5 bbl. batch of a given beer? I won't really have space to ager bigger beers, but would still like to be able to sprinkle them in. Thoughts?

    I appreciate the feedback!

  • #2
    I Just opened a Brewpub in Milwaukee in September. I did my build-out from a gutted building. Generaled it all and did much of the actual work myself. I ran into tons of unforeseens both in terms of money and time (AKA unearned money) and found a way to climb over all the crap piles laid at my feet. I'm anxious to go through this in hopes that it can help many. Surely others will chime in.

    So I am sure you are thinking mostly about the brewing stuff but pump the brakes on that for a bit. Those questions are best answered based on the size of the space and the budget you are looking at, and the infrastructure of the building.

    As for the space, though we can get started. LA is going to be different than Milwaukee but I will help you ask the right questions. You aren't giving us any detail for your cost estimation. Somebody shot you a number and it means nothing without details. So start with these!!

    1. Are you funded? Please be honest about this, because it is step one. Ill discuss the rest either way with you, but you should be realistic about this.

    2. Do you have a space? Buy or lease?

    3. What is the size, zoning, other tenants, common areas etc.?

    3. What are existing mechanicals like? Gas, electrical service, city steam (you probably don't have that like we do!!) or boilers, HVAC, fire suppression etc.

    4. How is the building frame? Outside walls and siding or masonry, roof, windows, doors, basement or foundation condition, ADA/fire code entry and exits.

    5. How about building features like an existing kitchen, bathrooms, bar, loading docks or outbuildings.

    Start there!!

    Matt
    Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by mmmatt View Post
      I Just opened a Brewpub in Milwaukee in September. I did my build-out from a gutted building. Generaled it all and did much of the actual work myself. I ran into tons of unforeseens both in terms of money and time (AKA unearned money) and found a way to climb over all the crap piles laid at my feet. I'm anxious to go through this in hopes that it can help many. Surely others will chime in.

      So I am sure you are thinking mostly about the brewing stuff but pump the brakes on that for a bit. Those questions are best answered based on the size of the space and the budget you are looking at, and the infrastructure of the building.

      As for the space, though we can get started. LA is going to be different than Milwaukee but I will help you ask the right questions. You aren't giving us any detail for your cost estimation. Somebody shot you a number and it means nothing without details. So start with these!!

      1. Are you funded? Please be honest about this, because it is step one. Ill discuss the rest either way with you, but you should be realistic about this.

      2. Do you have a space? Buy or lease?

      3. What is the size, zoning, other tenants, common areas etc.?

      3. What are existing mechanicals like? Gas, electrical service, city steam (you probably don't have that like we do!!) or boilers, HVAC, fire suppression etc.

      4. How is the building frame? Outside walls and siding or masonry, roof, windows, doors, basement or foundation condition, ADA/fire code entry and exits.

      5. How about building features like an existing kitchen, bathrooms, bar, loading docks or outbuildings.

      Start there!!

      Matt
      www.facebook.com/d14beer

      I am just getting the business plan sorted and these are the final things I need to start looking for investors. Fortunately, I know a few people with plenty of money that are interested already, but I dont want to talk to them seriously until the business plan is complete. I wont be doing any of the work by myself.

      Comment


      • #4
        Numbers vary greatly and many of the costs are based on the questions above and not square footage or both. So many variables. Unless the building you choose has a lot of things dialed in already your numbers are surely light. That may do the stuff you see like flooring and a bar and some lighting fixtures and decorating. I'd have to look at LA building material costs like drywall and lumber to get a feel for those kinds of things but I am guessing with all of the additional CA product and building restrictions you are substantially more costly than we are here.

        For a few general, lesser known things to consider. The air handling system for a commercial kitchen is very expensive. They require you to put in these giant fan hoods that will suck the hat off your head, and all equipment throughout must be NSF. Those things you can find online or craigslist used, but the real costs are in the other aspects of the system. Kitchen fire suppression can be costly. The air replacement system for the kitchen hood is the big one though. All that air that you are sucking out over your fryers and grill needs to be replaced so there is an additional heating and ac unit that conditions all that replacement air. $50-100K for that bs right there! If you have the ability to open windows in your dining room then you will need to have your system designed so that you have positive air pressure pushing out those windows(to keep bugs out) and different air pressure in the kitchen so each of those systems are independently balanced.

        ADA code compliance may seem like a couple of handrails and a big toilet, but it can also mean major building modifications to account for ramps or even the relocating of entryways.

        Fire suppression systems if not in the building already can easily be hundreds of thousands of dollars. Either way you might be doing a lot of firestop walls with multiple layers of drywall and a hat channel which can get expensive and every time you penetrate one you need to use a $15 tube of fire caulk and an $30 expanding sleeve, and an engineer to thumbs-up the whole system!!

        Much more to consider too.

        Matt

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by mmmatt View Post
          Numbers vary greatly and many of the costs are based on the questions above and not square footage or both. So many variables. Unless the building you choose has a lot of things dialed in already your numbers are surely light. That may do the stuff you see like flooring and a bar and some lighting fixtures and decorating. I'd have to look at LA building material costs like drywall and lumber to get a feel for those kinds of things but I am guessing with all of the additional CA product and building restrictions you are substantially more costly than we are here.

          For a few general, lesser known things to consider. The air handling system for a commercial kitchen is very expensive. They require you to put in these giant fan hoods that will suck the hat off your head, and all equipment throughout must be NSF. Those things you can find online or craigslist used, but the real costs are in the other aspects of the system. Kitchen fire suppression can be costly. The air replacement system for the kitchen hood is the big one though. All that air that you are sucking out over your fryers and grill needs to be replaced so there is an additional heating and ac unit that conditions all that replacement air. $50-100K for that bs right there! If you have the ability to open windows in your dining room then you will need to have your system designed so that you have positive air pressure pushing out those windows(to keep bugs out) and different air pressure in the kitchen so each of those systems are independently balanced.

          ADA code compliance may seem like a couple of handrails and a big toilet, but it can also mean major building modifications to account for ramps or even the relocating of entryways.

          Fire suppression systems if not in the building already can easily be hundreds of thousands of dollars. Either way you might be doing a lot of firestop walls with multiple layers of drywall and a hat channel which can get expensive and every time you penetrate one you need to use a $15 tube of fire caulk and an $30 expanding sleeve, and an engineer to thumbs-up the whole system!!

          Much more to consider too.

          Matt
          I appreciate the input. I should have mentioned that we are looking to take over an existing restaurant, so it will just be putting lipstick on the place and making it possible to brew there.

          Comment


          • #6
            I am in the process of renovating my existing restaurant into a brewpub. I will end up around $125/ft when done. This includes a 15bbl gas fired system with 5 fermenters, 1 bright in brewery, 1 HLT, and 8 brights as serving tanks. My space started at 9300 ft and is growing to 12,000 with the renovation.

            My initial budget was around $90/ft, so I've been scrambling for some additional funding. Some factors that you need to consider:
            - Is this considered a renovation or a new tenant layout by the governing authority (city, county, whatever). My inability to get this project reviewed as a renovation cost $200-250k additional due to having to bring the entire building up to current codes on energy, fire monitoring, ADA, etc. As a renovation, they only look at the specific work being done, as a new tenant layout they look at the whole building as a new project. What drove the new tenant layout determination: New corporation and new trade name. As the previously poster said: LA will be different (and likely more strict) than other's responding.
            - Other factors in my blown initial budget: A) Mission Creep. While I initially planned adding a brewery and painting up the place, with maybe a new bar, it grew into a lot more to give the business its greatest chance for success. B) Not understanding and properly budgeting the buildout under the initial scope. Even though I've built 3 restaurants, I was just WAY off on the cost of the initial changes.
            - My project is large. I will have some economies of scale. I would question if a similar project and scope would accomplish $125/ft.
            - Be honest about your buildout timing. I'll be 6 months behind due to architectural process, permitting, etc. It was not the fast process that I planned for since I was "just adding the brewery to the restaurant"

            Randy

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by chiliman View Post
              I am in the process of renovating my existing restaurant into a brewpub. I will end up around $125/ft when done. This includes a 15bbl gas fired system with 5 fermenters, 1 bright in brewery, 1 HLT, and 8 brights as serving tanks. My space started at 9300 ft and is growing to 12,000 with the renovation.

              My initial budget was around $90/ft, so I've been scrambling for some additional funding. Some factors that you need to consider:
              - Is this considered a renovation or a new tenant layout by the governing authority (city, county, whatever). My inability to get this project reviewed as a renovation cost $200-250k additional due to having to bring the entire building up to current codes on energy, fire monitoring, ADA, etc. As a renovation, they only look at the specific work being done, as a new tenant layout they look at the whole building as a new project. What drove the new tenant layout determination: New corporation and new trade name. As the previously poster said: LA will be different (and likely more strict) than other's responding.
              - Other factors in my blown initial budget: A) Mission Creep. While I initially planned adding a brewery and painting up the place, with maybe a new bar, it grew into a lot more to give the business its greatest chance for success. B) Not understanding and properly budgeting the buildout under the initial scope. Even though I've built 3 restaurants, I was just WAY off on the cost of the initial changes.
              - My project is large. I will have some economies of scale. I would question if a similar project and scope would accomplish $125/ft.
              - Be honest about your buildout timing. I'll be 6 months behind due to architectural process, permitting, etc. It was not the fast process that I planned for since I was "just adding the brewery to the restaurant"

              Randy
              Wow Randy, you have a big project on your plate!!! As Randy is saying, plan on doing things right from the get go because doing things half-assed doesn't cut it when you are putting this much work into a project. that is how budgets grow! I could do a formica bartop, turns into granite or carved wood pretty quick. Also good point about renovation costs and health code or building codes. Around here if a liquor/food license changes hands, you have to go through current health codes and if there is any reconstruction such as moving a wall or adding a bathroom you are then subject to current building codes. ADA, Firecode, Healthcode... Plan for the worst in all of that.

              Comment

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