US-05 Issue?

[eMart85]

This is a pic of the back of the brick that gave us trouble most recently - we've had a few that have been this way, don't know if they're all from the same lot or not. Also, I wouldn't say ours is a "slight" phenolic/Belgian flavor, it tastes like chewing on a band-aid to me... So I'm thinking contamination from our HEX, probably.

Curious to know if anyone has had this same problem with this batch number, however.

[brewmaster 2011]

I have been using US-05 as a house yeast for along time. I pitch 1000 grams (2 bricks) for a 15 bbl batch and have never had a problem until my last batch. I pitched 2 new bricks that I rehydrated in sterile water then pitched into oxygenated wort. Fermented at 67 F. I pack my heat X with chemical between batches and burn it out with 180 F water before knock out. Beer has a slight phenolic almost Belgian flavor to it. I wont repitch this yeast and now I'm a bit hesitant to use US 05 again. That my input.

Corey Nebbeling
Brewer
ThumbCoast Brewing Co

how long are you running 180f water through the hx? I run for 20 min at 180F+ and leave it pack in that water the day of my brew. i cip my hx the day before the brew inline wiht my fermenter.

[J.Scholb]

Backflush the HX too

Before taking the HX apart, since it probably needs new gaskets to seal again once disassembled, backflush with near boiling water from the kettle. Backflush is just running the liquid in the opposite direction from normal flow. Watch the water to see what comes out. If there is trube in there you will see it come out. Then vigorous run very hot water through the HX in both directions. It should loosen it up and clear it out, should prevent plugging problems too.

Lastly, I agree with the previous post about using very hot water to sanitize the HX before running out. Boil some water in the kettle (while waiting for the mash) and send it through the HX, maybe the hoses all the way to the FV too. Then, drain and cool.

[Shonky]

I too have had issues with two batches having strong phenolics this year using fresh US05 bricks. (Correct pitch rates, rehydrated, stored correctly, avg alc beer etc..)

They both had the same best before date, May 2016 from memory. I don't believe it was a contamination issue as I have had exactly the same flavour profile (band aid, gets worse through the end of fermentation and conditioning ) come through in two previous batches a while ago

These batches weren't with US05 but were in my novice pro period where I wasn't pitching big enough or active enough starters.

My theory - long lag times (can) = phenolic flavours due to yeast stress during growth phase. My secondary theory, Fermentis have had issues recently with US05 suffering poor vitality/viability leading to these long lag times and the issues some of us have seen.

Only a theory, open to other suggestions. Cheers Shonky

[eMart85]

We have not done a total chlorine test, though plan to in the near future. This flavor does not come through, however, when we use US-04.

It sounds to me like we're having a combination of a contamination (possibly from HX) and a long lag time from the US-05. We're brewing today, and I plan on pitching a whole brick (2x normal rate) of US-05 this time to see how that goes - I'm hoping that this could make up for the lack of vitality. Regardless, it looks like we'll be switching to liquid yeast for this strain soon.

Thanks again for all the great replies.

[HR3]

We use US-05 for quite a few of our beers as a house strain. We typically for a 3BBL batch pitch active yeast (210G) and have not had any off flavors or phenols. We have fermentation in less than 12 hours and full fermentation going by 24 hours. We oxygenate our wort through a stone in route. We go through many bricks of 05 and have only had 1 batch that was off, subsequently it was dumped, but thats 1 batch in 80+ for 05. I would be inclined to check you H20 or HX.

[eMart85]

Just sampled a batch we did using US-04 (not US-05), and it has the same strong phenol/band-aid flavor. I think we have a contamination somewhere - FWIW

[eMart85]

Ended up cancelling brew day today, took the HEX apart instead. Thinking this may be the culprit...

[MikeS]

I think you might be on to something there...

However, I have taken apart HXs that were dirtier than that but never led to contamination issues. (And I'm not suggesting that that is OK. Good on you for digging in! And the non contamination issues were verified by full lab micro tests for six months post packaging.)

I am curious what your daily CIP routine is for the HX. It's a very interesting visual data point and I would like to learn from your experience. I (at a different brewery than mentioned above) do a 20+ minute caustic cycle backwards every evening after brewing, pack the HX with iodine overnight, and then run a PAA cycle in the morning during my mash rest. I do not have the HLT capacity to run a heat sanitation cycle on it. At the end of the week I also run an acid cycle in addition to the caustic. I'm due to pull the HX apart soon and kind of want to know what to expect.

Cheers- Mike

[eMart85]

We've only been brewing for about 6 months... But previous to this we only did a cold water rinse after brew day, and we also did a starsan cycle on brew day to "sanitize". We'll now do a 180F hot water cycle and pack with sanitizer between use. This was my first time taking this apart, but I would not be surprised if some wild yeast / bacteria were living in this muck.

Edit: I guess what I'd like to know is - could this be a source of contamination? I would think so, but if I'm barking up the wrong tree here I'd like to know that as well!

[mmussen]

That gunk in the certainly could be the source of contamination. If any bugs got into that they certainly have hiding paces and food.
A bit of advice - cleaning and sanitizing are not the same thing. Both need to be done.

And here is my cleaning procedure on my HX
At the end of the brew I flush the HX in the forward direction with hot water. I run hot water through until I don't see any bits coming out. During this flush I also close the outlet valve on the HX a few times - by putting some pressure on the system you can slightly press on the plates to get more gunk out - and its an easy check that the water is clean.
Once the water is clean I run a caustic or PBW (personally I alternate between the two) cycle on the HX in the reverse direction of normal flow. I run for 20 min at full speed, I do close a valve and pack the HX from time to time.
If I clean with caustic I then run an acid rinse through the HX to make sure there's no caustic left in it. When I run PBW I leave the HX packed full of PBW until my next brew.
On brew day, after mashing in I pump about 85 gallons of boiling water from my kettle through the HX and all the lines that will have beer in them. I run the water over to my HLT so I have plenty of sparge water and enough to start the second brew.

[Lallemand Caroline]

Medicinal Flavors

eMart85,
Just a few suggestions for you. Certainly cleaning will be helpful in preventing any contamination in the future, so i do recommend that...
However, I have had a customer in the past that had this same issue. For them, it turned out to be a nutrient deficiency (they were essentially adding the wrong nutrients). The flavors were coming from the yeast not having ideal conditions to ferment. Also, I know with Lallemand's products aeration/oxygenation is not needed on first pitch as the cells already contain all the sterols and lipids needed for cell growth and division during fermentation. It is needed when repitching though, so ensuring you are getting enough oxygen dissolved when running into the fermenter is definitely a step to review as well. I can not speak for Fermentis, but it's worth asking them. If you would like to go over your nutrient additions, please feel free to contact me at cparnin@lallemand.com. Also, are you always pitching a fresh brick of yeast? Sounds like you are generally using half a brick/batch. This is fine, if it is stored properly and used within a week or so. Otherwise there is a degredation of the yeast, and it can lead to lower viability and vitality, poor performance and off flavors such as you mentioned.
Also as a side note, rehydration for ale strains can be done with sterile water. Only lager cells would need the diluted wort. I have a sheet I can send you for proper rehydration as well if you would like.
Cheers,
Caroline Parnin
East Coast Sales Manager
Lallemand Brewing Yeasts

Hello - a new brewery here that's been open for just a few months. We've just started having very phenolic off-flavors in some of our beers - band-aid, medicinal, smoky - and have had trouble identifying the issue. Any input would be greatly appreciated!

The strange thing is that it only seems to effect the beers that we use US-05 dry yeast for (about half of our lineup). When we go through the same procedure using US-04, we do not have any of this off flavor from what we can tell. We are carbon filtering all of our brewing water, so I don't think it's chlorine/chloramine that's the issue. We had success with US-05 for the first couple of months and are just now having this issue. If contamination were the issue, I would think it would affect all of our brews equally - unless US-05 is just more susceptible to contamination for some reason.

We're at the point where we're seriously considering paying more for WLP001 or WY-1056. I'm curious to see if anyone has had a similar issue before. Thanks in advance for any/all comments!

Cheers,
Eric

[usurpers26]

To those that had "issues" with the S05 - what was the final verdict?

We have noticed that over the past 3 months we have had 3 tanks that all ended up the same way, phenolic that gets worse as it conditions...obviously had to dump. The irony is between these 3 batches, we have done plenty of other "clean" beers that we use S05 for that came out just fine. We have been using S05 for years.

We have had the same same CIP, yeast pitching, O2 regimen for almost 3 years. I am not suggesting something in our regimen hasn't gone awry however this has all happened in the past 3 months.

We were thinking HEX but "common sense" tells me why wouldn't wee see this with every beer? Regardless, I think we are going to go over to liquid yeast even for our clean ales...would just love some closure from those who had the similar experience.

[Wayki]

Bit of a late bump. But would be interested in hearing if these issues went away after cleaning or did it turn out to be a yeast nutrient issue? Having similar issues with US05 dry pitches.

[Lallemand Caroline]

help from Lallemand/ Siebel Institute

Hi Eric,
Just wanted to share my email if you ever have any questions like this again in the future. I also have some insight if you do start rehydrating, as you mentioned in this thread.
The media used is crucial to successful rehydration. Undiluted wort causes osmotic pressure to the yeast and compromises its health. Most yeast strains can be rehydrated in water. If you are attempting to rehydrate a lager, diluted wort will work as you benefit from a small concentration of sugar. Please feel free to contact me with any yeast related questions!

Cheers,
Caroline Parnin
Lallemand Brewing
Siebel Institute of Technology