Phenolic Problem

[dirtfish]

We are using city water reported to have between 0.6 and 1.0 ppm Free Residual Chlorine. I have a simple 10” filter with this http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ilpage_o05_s00 cartridge.

Our procedure is to fill our kettle with the full volume of mash and sparge water the day before brewing. Then heat the water up to 200F and let it sit overnight with the kettle lid open to get rid of chlorine.

The next morning, we raise the water to mash-in temperature, and transfer mash water to our un-insulated SS HLT. Acid and minerals are mixed in to the heated mash water per recipe requirements. Once we are mashed in, the water remaining in the kettle is heated to sparging temp, and transferred to the HLT for sparging. Appropriate acid is mixed in at this time.

We sometimes need to top off the kettle (40-50 gallons) because runoff gravity or pH gets to low/high before full kettle volume is reached. If this happens, we top off with directly from the tap without any treatment-other than it has passed through the filter. We do a 90 minute boil.

We do a 10 minute whirlpool and rest for 20 minutes and get a 30 minute knockout through our HX.

Pitch BSI Dry English yeast starting at 66 and let rise to 68 or 70 for primary ferment in chilled SS conicals.

We alternate hot Super CIP and hot PBW for HX cleaning. After PBW, hot water rinse then pack with Sani Clean the next day. After Super CIP, hot water rinse, Acid 5 rinse, hot water rinse, then blow out with CO2-pack with Star San the day before brewing.

OGs vary from 12P to 16P. First pitch went well, but did not attenuate where I wanted. I “roused” yeast with CO2 after 4 days to try to get more attenuation. I then harvested that yeast a few days later. Second batch was greatly overpitched due to our difficulty in counting the English yeast-that batch was also harvested. Third and fourth pitches were more normal, we figured out how to declump and count and pitched right at 1m/ml/*P.

All of our brews so far have ended with apparent chlorophenol contamination. The off flavor is appearing to worsen with age. It is terrible and undrinkable.

Could topping off the kettle with (mostly) untreated tap water be the problem? Do I have a bug in the HX? Not sure where to look or how?

I need to find a reason and solution for the phenolic before brewing the next batch. Any help would be appreciated.

[tjc27]

you could try camden tablets:

Campden tablets (potassium or sodium metabisulfite) are a sulfur-based product that is used primarily in wine, cider and beer making to kill bacteria and to inhibit the growth of most wild yeast: this product is also used to eliminate both free chlorine, and the more stable form, chloramine, from water solutions.

Chloramines are harder to remove than chlorine, if your water now has chloramines (maybe water treatment changed) boiling may not be enough to remove it.

[mmussen]

First thing I'd do is check with the water department to see how their chlorinating the water. Chloroamines don't break down as easily and require more contact time with a charcoal filter to remove. Plus you don't need much at all to cause major flavor issues.
It may be your filter simply isn't big enough to remove all the chlorine - a bigger filter, or slowing down your flow rate through the filter could help. The filter should have information on flow rates its designed for.
Infection is possible. My only thought there would be to leave the HX packed with PBW or your sanitizer after CIP and not to let it sit empty. Otherwise it sounds like things are getting cleaned properly. (at least from the info given)
My only other suggestion would be to double check your fermentation temps and use some fresh yeast. If your beer is getting too warm internally you may have similar flavor issues, and as you're having current flavor issues I would say get fresh yeast just to make sure you're not passing some form of contamination from batch to batch in the yeast.

[dirtfish]

Thank you for the quick replies-

I did confirm yesterday with an engineer from our water department that our municipality uses chlorine and does not use any chloramine. He said they use table salt and water to make sodium hypochlorite...

I'll check the specs on our filter. This should only be critical when topping up though, correct? If I'm dealing with chlorine, pre-heating our water and resting overnight should allow chlorine to escape? I will also add in a good whirlpool the day before once water gets heated up. I also plan to use campden tablets in the next brew for extra measure.

I just did a test with filtered water and unfiltered water from two different taps at our property. The filtered water tested at 0 ppm and the unfiltered water tested at 0.15 ppm. So the filter is at least doing something.

I plan to do another cleaning of the HX and oxygenating manifold using Super CIP/Acid 5 rinse cycle and throw in a 185F water loop using my kettle to get the system up to 180F for 20 minutes. Then I will cool with tap water and pack with Sani Clean until next brew day.

I'll try to check the fermentation temp sensors. I have 12" thermowells and Johnson Control temp sensors that are coated with conductive grease inside the thermowells. The temp sensor and thermometer at the exit from the HX read consistent so I assumed they were correct.

I was reluctantly planning to get a fresh pitch of yeast. I'm just trying to address any and all possibilities before pouring more money down the drain.

I did have some trouble with initial cleaning of our fermenters and tanks. There was a lot of manufacturing residue that was not coming off with PBW. I did an initial PBW cleaning then an Acid 5 passivation but had some streaking/discoloration of the stainless. I worked through several cleanings, finally resulting to using Simple Green to remove the oily residue. This was followed with another PBW/Passivation process and the tanks seemed squeaky clean after that with water sheeting and no droplets forming...

[brewmaster 2011]

ask your water department if they add ammonia to the water. chlorine plus ammonia equals chloramine.

[mmussen]

One thought on your HX - I sani mine the day of the brew by running 180 oF water for 20+ min, then just leave it sealed up until I need to run wort though it. You may want to try that, less time spent mucking with hoses and clamps is less chance something can go wrong.
If you had some residue in your FV that could be where the flavor is coming from. I would get fresh yeast and see how that goes ASAP - even if it means doing a batch with a generic cheap dried yeast, just as a check to see if that's the problem.

[dirtfish]

Well I talked to BSI about one of our plates and pretty sure we have an acid producing bacteria contamination. Water is probably fine, I just need to learn how to clean better.

I will be dumping everything and doing hot water rinse/PBW/Acid process on HX, fermenters and brites and everything in between.

[mmussen]

A couple cleaning tips for you.
Make sure your cleaning water is hot enough. Super CIP's temp range is from 150 to 180 - and having your cleaning water that hot will make a huge difference in how well it cleans.
Rise and preheat the equipment you're cleaning as best you can. For FV's I burst rinse with water the same temp as my cleaner until the tank probe is over 120 F. Also make sure you've vented all the CO2 out of a tank before you start cleaning. Caustic and PBW break down very quickly in the presence of CO2 - and then nothing gets clean at all.
On your HX - clean in the reverse direction of normal flow and ideally at at least 1.5 times the flow rate you run beer though.
My HX gets rinsed with hot water in the forward direction - during witch i close off the outlet valve a few times to build a little pressure across the plates to help remove any chunks. Then i clean for a minimum of 20 min in the reverse direction at the highest flowrate i can get. If I clean with PBW I leave the HX packed with it until the next brew, for caustic I follow with an acid rise. Then on brewday I run boiling water through the HX for at least 20 min to pasteurize (heat can kill bugs still hiding in any spec of gunk chemicals won't) and then I don't don't touch the HX again until wort is running through it.
One last tip on your HX - its a lot easier to keep clean and running well if you do your best to keep any trub or bits of hops from getting into it.

Good luck

[dirtfish]

Thanks for the tips.

I know packing the HX with PBW is ok. I usually leave PBW packed overnight, then rinse and pack with Sani Clean until next brew day (brew 1x/week).

I assume that packing with Super CIP (chlorinated caustic) is NOT ok though-right? When we use the Super CIP, we rinse with water then run a dilute Acid 5 rinse, then pack with Sani Clean in the same day.

It has been recommended to me maybe add a second sanitizer into our routine and switch them up every so often. This in order to not let any cooties get acclimated to a consistent environment. Any thoughts on this?

[beerme]

look into wort spoilers : klebsiella

clean/ sanitize under the plates in your mash tun well, all the brewhouse piping/ dead legs clean your grist case/ places where grain and water meet.

If you want to sanitize your heat exchanger, heat up 80-85 C water in kettle/ hot liquor tank, recirculate through heat exchanger for at least 20 min. let cool and do it again the next day

[mmussen]

I would not pack with Super CIP - I usually leave the dilute acid 5 in. Also when packing with PBW I will leave it packed with that until the next brewday - which is usually about once a week as well. As long as the HX is sealed on both ends I've never noticed any problems with doing that.
One more quick thought I just had for you - what kind of hose are you using for transfers etc? I've run into a couple nanos over the years that were using hose that wasn't rated for temps greater than 150 and were leaching material from the hose into the wort. That caused some pretty funky flavors.

[dirtfish]

Thanks Manuel-
We have Novaflex Novabrew from GW Kent for hot side transfer (rated to 240F). Goodyear Nutriflo for cold side (rated to 158F).

[mmussen]

Sounds good to me. Just makes sure you're not heat saning those cold side lines. I had a feeling that wasn't the issue, I just thought I'd mention is as I've run into it before.
ABQ is a great little city. I wish you guys luck

[forrestmz3005]

Hi. As a suggestion, use Iodine as a sanitizer, and acid based cleaners for recirculation (cip) in your FV and HX. Caustic cleaners are not recommended in presence of CO2, and there is no real value in using them in those areas due to the fact that they will not remove beerstone. Chlorine also is not very effective in the alkaline range, since it remains in its hypochlorite stage, which is a weak disinfectant, ( does not dissociate quickly to its gas form ). All oxidizing sanitizers benefit a lower PH for faster kill times.


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