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Thread: Adding Hydrogen Peroxide to caustic. What ratio??

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
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    Santa Fe, NM, USA
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    Adding Hydrogen Peroxide to caustic. What ratio??

    I am considering adding hydrogen peroxide to my caustic cycle on CIPs of really heavily soiled FVs. At what rate would you dose hydrogen peroxide to diluted built caustic?
    Thank you for any feedback.

  2. #2
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    Sep 2015
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    Guadalajara
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    Noooooo!!!! Please don't. That can cause a very violent reaction. You can sanitize with hydrogen peroxide, but after caustic wash and rinse. If they are very soiled, try an acid recirculation after the caustic. A good cip schedule for heavily soiled FV, will be something like this:

    Pre Rinse with water
    Recirculate caustic at 1.5% NaoH
    Short Rinse
    Recirculate Ácid at 2% Conc.
    Short rinse
    Sanitize

    Formulated products work better than raw materials.




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  3. #3
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    Sep 2013
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    United States
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    Go For It

    We use Liquik Bleach (34% Hydrogen Peroxide) with non-chlorinated caustic (Cir-Q-Late) at a ratio of 1 to 1 and it works amazingly well, especially for brewhouse applications. Both are Birko products. Contact Dana over there if you have any concerns.

  4. #4
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    http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pd...13_hart001.pdf

    Not being stubborn, it's just not safe to mix hydrogen peroxide and caustic soda. Please read the msds on any hydrogen peroxide concentration, in the reactivity data conditions to avoid, and you will see alkalis in every one. It is not safe..


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  5. #5
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    This is what Birko says about mixing peroxide with caustic....

    http://www.birkocorp.com/uncategoriz...utions-safely/


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  6. #6
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    Nov 2009
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    Moab, Utah
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    600

    Special Purposes

    High strength Hydrogen peroxide may be used in conjunction with Acid 5 for enhanced scale removel.
    There are some other novel purposes that can be worked out.
    Loeffler Chemical can advise on the how to.
    Warren Turner
    Industrial Engineering Technician
    HVACR-Electrical Systems Specialist
    Moab Brewery
    " No Cell Phone Zone."

  7. #7
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    Jul 2006
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    Easton, PA
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    Just run a second caustic cycle. it's much safer

  8. #8
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    Sep 2005
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    Anaheim, CA
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    Contact your chemical supplier and explain the problem. Your rep will be able to recommend how to safely get the results you need from their products.

    cheers,
    Barbara

  9. #9
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    Oct 2012
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    Sweden
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    This is generally done for higly soiled hot objects, such as wort coolers, internal/external boilers and lauter tuns

    Your standard product should not have any problems cleaning a fermenter if you have properly sized pumps and spray balls/heads.

    http://www.mbaa.com/publications/tq/...3-0928-01.aspx

  10. #10
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    Panama City Florida
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    Quote Originally Posted by B Gerovac View Post
    Contact your chemical supplier and explain the problem. Your rep will be able to recommend how to safely get the results you need from their products.

    cheers,
    Barbara
    Agreed, I have had good luck doing a hot rinse, acid wash then caustic. Proteins often hide behind beer stone so the acid will remove any stone and mineral deposits followed by caustic
    Mike Eme
    Brewmaster

  11. #11
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    Oct 2002
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    Chesterfield, UK
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    Hydrogen peroxide can and is widely added, safely to dilute caustic at up to 4% NaOH for brewhouse cleaning (and other specialist duties) However, as advised, it is not simply a case of chucking a load of H2O2 in concentrate form into concentrated caustic, so if you want to go down this route, it requires accurate dosing kit - expense. Easiest option would be to have a sacrificial caustic wash to get the worst of the crud off, rinse off, then either acid or a second caustic detergent recirc. It is difficult to advise further without knowing the design of your kit, FVs, CIP set etc.
    dick

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2011
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    Atlanta, GA
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    Sorry it has taken two months to chime in after the Loeffler name was dropped.

    It is perfectly acceptable to add small amounts of concentrated Hydrogen Peroxide to the caustic solutions. Please remember to add chemicals to solution or water, and never water or chemicals to chemical. We have done this for decades, and in recent years, many other US chemical manufacturers are now also following suit--including those that previously advocated against the practice.

    Hydrogen Peroxide is added in order to provide oxidation to assist the alkalinity during CIP--similar to the chlorine in chlorinated caustics. Provided you are able to use the solution hot, e.g. in the brew house, the radical created from Hydrogen Peroxide will actually be more oxidative than chlorinated caustics but without the corrosive effects of chlorine. This allows the solution to be used hotter, longer, and reused if necessary (never reuse chlorinated caustics). The oxidative radical that is created will provide better efficacy than an additional caustic cycle or the use of chlorinated caustic. After reviewing numbers at some of our larger customers, we found the additional cost of hydrogen peroxide additives was negated by the lower use in caustic. This study excluded the time savings of adding peroxide.

    We recommend customers use a 0.5 - 0.7% v/v addition in brew house caustic CIP solutions. However, most of our recommended Hydrogen Peroxide additives are built products, so you may wish to adjust this concentration if using a commodity H2O2. Since you are using a built caustic, the percentage of NaOH is most likely in the 0.4% range, not the 4.0% range typical of commodity Sodium Hydroxide. However, the addition of peroxide should be based on the total amount of solution, not proportional to the amount of caustic used as FowlerBrew recommends. Unless using a built oxidative additive, I recommend a target concentration of 1,000 - 1,500ppm of Peroxide in a solution of 0.6% NaOH (or your manufacturer's recommended usage volume), used at 160-180F / 71-81C for 30 minutes followed by a potable water rinse. Also, overuse of peroxide in the thousands of ppm can cause excessive wear on gaskets.

    We have trialed the addition of built peroxide additives in our Nitric-Phosphoric CIPs. This is now a recommended (optional) practice when using acid for the removal of organic soils, i.e. in acid-only CIP cycles. We have not found it cost effective to add during traditional acid CIP for the removal of inorganics (scale).
    -BC

  13. #13
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    Dec 2011
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    Olathe, KS
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    81
    My Chem guy said that they have been testing mixing their PAA sanitizer with their caustic. Their PAA is 26% H2O2 and 4.9% Peroxyacedic acid.
    Would the acid decompose at the 170ish temp leaving behind the H2O2?
    Has anyone heard of doing it this way?

    Chris

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

  14. #14
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    Feb 2015
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    Enumclaw, WA.
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    13

    Hydrogen Peroxide added to Caustic

    Quote Originally Posted by Noble31 View Post
    My Chem guy said that they have been testing mixing their PAA sanitizer with their caustic. Their PAA is 26% H2O2 and 4.9% Peroxyacedic acid.
    Would the acid decompose at the 170ish temp leaving behind the H2O2?
    Has anyone heard of doing it this way?

    Chris

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
    Not a very good choice for several reasons, primarily safety and cost. If improperly mixed and proportioned, could be harmful. Also, when adding the PAA to the Caustic, you have neutralization going on and compromizing both materials. PAA is very expensive to be used to improve something like a poorly built caustic. I recommend purchasing a well built caustic from a reputable supplier and you will be money ahead and healthier employees. Oh, and tell your chemical guy to do their testing in their facility, on their insurance, not at your place. Regards, Dean of Clean.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Midway, Georgia, Liberty County
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    12

    Caustic & Peracetic

    Do you guys have the correct chemical name for ordering purposes of Caustic and Peracetic, and recommended H2O mixes for cleaning and sanitizing? Need to place order now....

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