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  • Size vs Budget

    I need some direction from the more experienced forum members.. Timm, Russel, Linus, etc... My experience is extensive with marketing, distribution and sales of beer. I have always said I wouldn't get back in unless I could do it right. I have difficulty in thinking small scale. I figured out where the investor capital is. To do my project "the right way," I need $3 or 4 MM including cash. That will take much longer to raise and more equity would be sold than I may care to part with. It would buy a large parcel of land, build at least 12,000 feet including a large tap room, 30 bbl 4 vessel brewery, can line and all the other necessary line items.

    My PPM lawyer would like me to keep the raise around $1 MM. I figure I can get an SBA 504 for another $1 MM. I can't wrap my head around how to build something that has profit potential on $2 MM of budget. I have an excellent location with tourism at over 1 MM people per year, the tap room should do a half million gross $$ on the low side. The theme is brilliant, fits in with the surroundings and translates well in almost every state. I have no interest in renovating a building and getting in that way. This must be done from ground up.

    The land will cost $200-250 K. A smaller building of 5000' will easily cost a half million and there's no room for a can line. Wholesaling kegs will bring around $220 per barrel, no where near the margins on cans. on premise draft is a high maintenance game and tap handles and cooperage costs are high. I will do kegs but believe cans are a more viable way to build volume and margin these days. I'm not sure how much wholesaler commitment i can garnish with no can packages and self distribution is geographically illogical. I want to have $250-500 cash on hand when I open to weather the first 2 years. So that leaves not much for equipment or space to put it in.

    As we know, replacing the brew house is the biggest PITA. The savings by getting a 15 bbl aren't that much compared to the 30. Quotes are around $450 for the 15 and $600 for the 30. I am not much of a believer in the nano thing, even with the tap volume I mentioned. So, where would you guys scale down? Do I build 5000' and put the 30 in it and run on tap income with a small amount of draft? Add the mobile canning guy which always sounds like a leaking cluster F. Do I build a tap room and enough space for a 7 or 10 bbl and eek it out for 2 years until I am more bankable and have significant investor interest from patrons and convert this into a pilot and build the big one out back down the road? Do I wait until I have the 3 or 4 that I really need? Do you need more information? What's the direction you would take on two million of budget, an excellent theme and a crapload of national sales and distribution experience in craft beer. (ie. we will sell whatever we can produce)

    Thanks in advance and looking forward to your advice..

  • #2
    Money is in the tap room. You said you have a good location so make it as large is you can.

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    • #3
      I think a good place to start would be forecasting your expected volume in the first 12, 24 and 36 months. You can then build an excel spread sheet to point you in the right direction for the BH size along with the size and quantity of tanks needed to start and the estimated number tanks you will add in those upcoming years.

      I agree that the tap room is the largest profit your going to make but I do wonder about the easy $500K gross in the first year. You would need to be selling on average 5 to 6 kegs a day 7 days a week. Not many new cellar doors are doing those kind numbers. You could brew that on a 15BBL system brewing every 4 days once you had inventory in stock and were only brewing to bring your levels to par. How many kegs or carton of cans do you project to sell per week? I am guessing you could easily start with a 3 vessel 15bbl system and tank farm as your business grows. Once your at 3 to 4 brews per day then you can look at a new system.

      Of course the beer needs to be great for the puzzle to work.

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      • #4
        Tim, you are losing me with your tap room math. You are implying I have to do 5-6 kegs a day 7 days a week to gross a half million. There are 124 pints in a 1/2 keg presuming you get it all out. So, 5 kegs a day would be 620 pints. At $5 a pint, that's $3100 a day or over $1.1 MM a year. Tourism at my front door is 1 million people a year. If 5% of them come in and spend $10, there's a half million in gross tap room revenue. I failed math 3 times so tell me if I'm missing something here...

        What other operators are or aren't doing in their operations in terms of volume is not the question and neither is my forecast. The question is how to best spend $2 MM between land, building and equipment. I'm sure that I can build a large tap room and a nice 10 bbl system on $2 MM. My gripe is that it won't have 10,000 feet and a can line and a 30 bbl system thus requiring a completely new brew house very soon, that would require 3 or 4.

        I realize 80% of the now over 4000 breweries have little to no experience thus your concern for beer quality and accurate sales forecasting and I appreciate that and would generally share your skepticism. However, this isn't my first trip to the campfire. In the 90's I created a beer that sold 400,000 barrels in its 3rd year. While I had an existing distribution network in 10 states, I personally opened another 10 myself and worked the streets with the distributors. It goes without saying the beer will be top shelf and I know how to manage wholesalers.

        Again, working under the assumption you can sell all you can make, how would you spend 2 million given 400+ barrels are going through the tap room?

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        • #5
          I will agree that number that TiminOz provided is quite ambitious.

          Now rule of thumb for a brewpub is 5-7BBL per seat per year. Yes this is per brew pub and food is the activity that people do there.

          Opening a kitchen is it's own can of worms. If you are at good location you can try food trucks or have agreement with close by restaurant.

          It is harder and harder to sell package product these days at least in my neck of the woods.

          Good luck.

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          • #6
            Don't we all wish we could get the money to build the brewery of our dreams right out of the gate? Unfortunately this is usually never the case and growth/expansion/construction are seemingly a way of life. If you can only raise 2 mill then that is your limiting factor and thinking beyond that will just lead you towards a headache.

            I would run the numbers on what the 2 mill facility can produce from a capacity and money standpoint. Build it so that it is profitable as soon as possible based on that. If it means bigger taproom/less distribution/no canning, so be it. Since you are building from scratch it would be very easy to lay out a smaller building but configure it so that it can easily be added onto later. If your 2 mill project becomes bankable in a year or two, then seek the money to add on, swap out the brewhouse (if necessary) add tanks, packaging, etc. Sure if you look at it as a whole you will spend more money in the long run to ultimately get to the same size, but if that money isn't available then its pointless to worry about a situation that you can do nothing about right now.

            My brewery has been under nearly constant construction for 2 years. Granted we are at a smaller scale than you are talking but the same rules still apply. If I think about how much money I have spent to date re-doing work I've already done it makes me sick. However if I think about what it would have taken to build the brewery the way it is now from the start, I'd still be working at a desk in a chemical factory wondering what could have been since I would have never got funding, and even if I had, we probably wouldn't have survived the first two years due to the extra cash burden at a larger startup size.

            Rome wasn't built in a day. Neither is "the last brewery you'll ever need". Do what you can with what you've got and keep an eye towards thoughtful expansion when appropriate...
            Scott LaFollette
            Fifty West Brewing Company
            Cincinnati, Ohio

            Comment


            • #7
              Your big costs are going to be the land, building, and utilities. I'd build out a taproom, and the brewhouse utilities for a 30 bbl system - sewer, water, electrical, steam piping, etc. Maybe start with a two-vessel 15 bbl system, draft only and taproom sales. Plan to be able to expand the building for a bigger cellar and packaging, and replace the brewhouse when it is maxed out. As many new breweries are starting up, you'll be able to get close to what you paid for it. Make all your systems like the boiler, glycol chiller, etc. modular so you can just drop another one in instead of replacing everything.

              If you believe the industry is going to continue to grow, then protect your equity and start smaller, and grow from cash flow and bank financing.
              Linus Hall
              Yazoo Brewing
              Nashville, TN
              www.yazoobrew.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Plan to expand!

                Rough out your "ideal" brewery--what you imagine you might grow into one day--and draw it out. Now build just enough of that to get going--this will leave you with room to expand, and a reasonable plan to do so. I speak from experience--we didn't do this, and have "built ourselves into a corner". It's easy to expand a building--or add onto one--from the rake end. Adding a parallel building on the eve side is always a PITA. Adding an ell or teeing off really limits your options in the future.

                Linus has excellent suggestions. Build smaller, but be prepared for the future. Things like the boiler, chiller, etc. will be things you'll want redundancy in in the future (if not immediately), so leave room to add more later, while keeping the older ones for back-up.

                Check out the reliability of services--electrical, water, sewer. Ask businesses in the area--and local electricians, plumbers, etc, about outages and plan to deal with them if necessary. For instance, if we'd known how unreliable our 3-phase service was, we could have saved $k$ by installing motor savers on all 3-phase equipment not driven by VFDs (something I'd recommend anyhow).

                Buy the best equipment possible so you can sell it easily when you expand (or worse). Made in USA (or wherever you plan to build) equipment from known and respected brands will always be easier to sell.
                Timm Turrentine

                Brewerywright,
                Terminal Gravity Brewing,
                Enterprise. Oregon.

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                • #9
                  Thanks guys. This is what I needed to hear. I will try to get a 15 bbl 3 vessel. I would prefer to have a brewer on board at this point since he will be the one using the equipment, but... Would it be preferred to have the combi-tank as the mash lauter or the kettle/whirlpool? At one point I had a German brewer lined up and he wanted the mash in the boil. Unfortunately I lost him to another brewery because, well this has taken so long. Also, I'm concerned if the number of breweries has severely drained the talent pool. I want a top notch brewer, the guy who can answer the posts, not post them. There's equity for him as well.

                  As for the building, that's where I'm going to be stuck next. How to get a rough budget without spending a good nut on designs. That money has to come out of funding, but I would like to know I can build the minimums on the budget I'm raising. I think a Vulcan steel building with 20' eaves is what makes sense? I could build it with 2 expandable sides (rakes as you said) I can blow out one way for fermentation and another for packaging and warehouse... I will build the place as you said, from a large facility cut down to start. There's 31 acres so, plenty of room. I found out the sewer and water are close, but not quite to the driveway. Sewer/water guy said it might cost $75K to get it connected. F*^$^%!!! Is a 1" line enough for the building including a sprinkler system? It puts out 50 gallons a minute. The 3/4" provides 20 GPM.

                  I will be hiring one of the experienced brewer/consultants who I found on PB to help with the design/requirements and I know the brewery suppliers provide drawings, but just for the system needs... I was looking at NSI, DME, Criveller, ABE and Prospero. Do you think I need to consider Premier strictly because they are USA? I like Marks but they are kind of expensive comparatively I think. Should I be looking for an architect who has done a brewery before? Is a local architect fine if the consultant can provide what's needed?

                  Roughly speaking, can I build enough space for 2500+- of tap room and, I dunno, 2500' of brewery for a half million or is it more like 750? I'm not in a metro where there are inflated construction costs...

                  Thanks again guys, real good stuff..

                  JW

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think if I were doing a three vessel 15 bbl I would go with a mash/lauter/kettle-whirlpool with the ability to do a whirlpool later if you wanted. I think that gives you the shortest batch cycles.

                    Those are all reputable companies, and I would add Sprinkman out of Wisconsin and Craftwerks out of Michigan.

                    Your water tap is going to be sized for your sprinkler system, and I think you would want to make that big enough to cover the size of the building you eventually will have. You don't want to have to go back and make a bigger water tap for a bigger sprinkler system when you expand. Our 25,000 sq ft building has a 6" main tap for the sprinkler, then a 2" tee off for the main brewery supply. On sewer - make sure to keep the brewery sewer and the taproom sanitary sewer lines separated as far out as possible, so you can deal with effluent from the brewery as needed.

                    In my experience, architects will be of little use on the brewery side. A good consultant can lay out the brewery side of things, and then your architect can design the building and taproom.
                    Linus Hall
                    Yazoo Brewing
                    Nashville, TN
                    www.yazoobrew.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      You can count about 10% for architect from building project.

                      I have 6" pipe coming into building for my sprinkler system. Then I have 2" tee for building and brewery.

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                      • #12
                        Agree with you Linus on that configuration. Add the whirlpool when needed. I think I may have confused you on the water supply, I mean the pipe coming from the road. Having the utility supply or "connect" anything larger than 1" is stupid expensive. While the pipe for the sprinkler might be 6", does it need to be a 6" connect from the provider? They call it "meter size." A 6" meter is like $130,000. I'm talking with one builder who can also be the architect, maybe that will save some coin over having 2 separate...
                        Last edited by BeerBred; 02-23-2016, 06:03 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Yes I have 6" of the water main. Question is. Do you need to have sprinkler?

                          If your taproom has 99 people capacity or less you do not have to have sprinkler.

                          I do not know about warehouse space and what requirements are there.

                          Good luck.
                          Last edited by Thirsty_Monk; 02-23-2016, 08:11 PM.

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                          • #14
                            I'm not sure what the town code is on sprinklers. That would be great if I could get around it. Potential problem, I think the utility said there's only a 2" line near the road. Well is possible.

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                            • #15
                              Specific Mechanical recommends 25 CFM water supply. This is dependent on water pressure and diameter of pipe.


                              Check this chart to get you in the ball park.

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