I'm in the planning process on a new startup here in California. The city is asking how I plan to separate the taproom from the brewing area "such as a glass wall". I explained how having a physical separation would have a detrimental effect on the brewery experience. For the most part all the breweries in southern cal have just simple bars or even plastic chains as boundaries. Our building has 20 foot ceilings and a wall is just silly! I have provided the city with pictures of at least half a dozen local breweries in other local cities were there are only simple boundaries. The only places I can think of that have glass walls are brewpubs where food is being served and I understand that. We are not going to be serving food, only food trucks or catering. Does anybody else have experience in dealing with their cities regarding this matter and if so what was the result. Thanks!
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TTB guidelines and Homeland Security
Originally posted by Tenmile View PostI'm in the planning process on a new startup here in California. The city is asking how I plan to separate the taproom from the brewing area "such as a glass wall". I explained how having a physical separation would have a detrimental effect on the brewery experience. For the most part all the breweries in southern cal have just simple bars or even plastic chains as boundaries. Our building has 20 foot ceilings and a wall is just silly! I have provided the city with pictures of at least half a dozen local breweries in other local cities were there are only simple boundaries. The only places I can think of that have glass walls are brewpubs where food is being served and I understand that. We are not going to be serving food, only food trucks or catering. Does anybody else have experience in dealing with their cities regarding this matter and if so what was the result. Thanks!
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Originally posted by Starpoint View PostHi, I have been advised that the floor plan requirement for your TTB Brewer's Notice now requires a physical wall between the brewery and any public space at least 6' tall. If not, then you must have locking fermenter and brite valves. The emphasis is both on security of the beer from sabotage and safety of the public. This was not the case before but has become required due to Homeland Security concerns. As far as your municipality's requirements go, you'll catch more flies with honey. Maybe you want to consider a wall as will be required by the TTB and explain to your building and zoning authorities. Cheers and Best Wishes!
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TTB separation
We were told you could get away with a 42" separation wall, if you lock the fermentors, by the TTB. That's what we have on our plans and our federal license was recently approved. Seems like it depends a lot on who you actually end up dealing with. Supposedly a lot of turnover there in the last year and some of the people they've brought in are by no means experts. I would imagine any brewery that has opened recently without some kind of separation either got some more experienced people at the TTB, who are familiar with things that used to get through no problem, or are rolling the dice that an inspector never show up.
On the local level, we've been very fortunate that the city has been very accommodating to us. We're using a row of barrels in racks as our separation and they didn't bat an eye. Sounds like you are on the right track though. Show them what others are doing, play nice, and find someone at the city who is in your corner. If they won't be flexible, get creative!Last edited by OG727; 04-15-2016, 11:35 PM.
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TTB Fence
So I just went thought this with the TTB 2 weeks ago. She required me install a 6' wall or fence to separating the brewing area for tasting room. I used a security fence so I could roll them away when I was brewing. I got them from Uline ( http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/...A&gclsrc=aw.ds). They work great and she approved them. I hope this helps
Cheers!
Milton's Brewing
Carlsbad, NM
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Potentially another option
I've got several applications before the TTB right now and most have a wall or glass partition between the tasting room and the brewery space, but...
In the past, and this is no guarantee for future success, I've had some success dealing with the separation (or transient nature thereof) through the discussion of security. For example, I recall one application where a client installed a knee wall (<4' tall) with a double "gate" for access to the brewing space and we made sure to include in the "description of security" something like
"the separation of the brewing space and the taproom is less than a full partition. However, the brewing space and access to the brewing space will be monitored by company staff at all times during business hours where the public has access to the taproom. The entire brewing space is visible through line of sight to the bar area and the taproom seating (if any). There are signs indicating limited access and "employees only" at regular intervals along the separation between the brewing space and the taproom. Additionally, there are "caution" signs along the partition indicating process hazards, restricted access, and "all persons must be escorted beyond this point." Lastly, surveillance cameras are in place to monitor the brewing and taproom spaces."
And, at the time, that seemed to satisfy the requirements.
Consider that the interest for the TTB is not to make ridiculous rules, but to ensure that the public does not have access to (or cannot reasonably access) non-tax-paid finished product or beer-in-process. I'd just call the TTB, send them a picture of what you have, and ask about some different options - "what if I x, y, or z, would that be enough separation or security?"
Gimme a call or email if you want to chat.
John
john@beerlawcenter.comJohn Szymankiewicz PE, Esq
Beer Law Center
www.beerlawcenter.com
john@beerlawcenter.com
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Originally posted by OG727 View PostI would imagine any brewery that has opened recently without some kind of separation ... or are rolling the dice that an inspector never show up.
Unfortunately I think this is the answer. A lot of places I have seen open recently wouldn't come remotely close to meeting the separation guidelines. I think people are just doing what they want and then hoping no one ever comes and calls them on it.
That being said, we were within the guidelines (at the time) with TTB but had to fight with our municipality for several months because they wanted a full height wall (20+ foot) separating the brewery/taproom. It took a long time to convince them that we didn't have to do it. Showing them other breweries WITHIN OUR SAME CITY that they approved without a full wall finally convinced them to let up on us. The locality seems to always be the most troublesome on these issues since they don't usually have experience dealing with breweries so they just want to treat them like restaurants...Last edited by yap; 04-16-2016, 07:54 AM.Scott LaFollette
Fifty West Brewing Company
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Education
Originally posted by mashpaddled View PostRather than fight over whether the full wall is necessary or in your best interests, try to open up a conversation about why they want you to have the full wall. Educate and propose alternative solutions that satisfy their concerns.
If you want to operate a tavern on the brewery premises, you apply for the Brewery Public House license, we all know that. The rules say that if the TTB officer finds "that the operation of the tavern on brewery premises will not jeopardize the revenue or impede the effective administration" of the TTB then they give you the green light.
The big take away here is that, while local administrations (such as the OLCC here in Oregon) have public safety as their number one priority, the TTB care first about collecting the right tax. The rest of this rule simply reinforces this principle. You have to diagram the public and private areas, describe how you measure the tax determined beer (e.g. sight glass, flow meter), and establish procedures for measuring and labeling tax determined beer. Oh yeah and you have to pay tax on the beer which is consumed in the tavern.
So it should not take a lucky draw when it comes to the TTB officer who reviews your application; open plan breweries are fully compliant with the rule as long as you can convince TTB that you can fully account for all the beer which is subject to tax.
As discussed above polices and procedures, security systems, and surveillance cameras will all be helpful as you make your case.
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Boundaries
Thank you all for the input in this matter, I think I will take the education route and try to find out what they are really trying to accomplish. Much of this thread responded with advice for dealing with the TTB, I haven't even begun to deal with them yet, I am being asked to build this wall at the city level. Last weekend I visited 13 breweries in the San Diego area. Only one had a physical wall between the brewing area and the public space. I saw things like stacked barrels, stacked kegs, plastic chains, 2x4 bars on pipe and then in one of the best know nationally distributed brands there was virtually nothing! Please continue to post your experiences and I'll follow through with the outcome. Thanks
PS
I couldn't help but post this pic of the virtually nothing border.
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TTB Wall and public seperation
Hi,
We are in month 5 of our TTB process and we are also being asked to separate the public area from the brewing area with a 4' wall and locking tanks when all the brewery's around us have open areas.
Our agent is also spouting off concerns about access to the keg cold room (which is double locked) and our kegging area (which will only be used when not open to the public).
The big question now is what is the TTB/Legal difference between a "brewery with a tasting room" and a "brewpub with a tavern". we applied as the latter but our TTB agent this thinking about having us switch. I'm completely confused now. We're a 2.5 bbl nano that will brew twice a week and be open to serve pints 4 days per week. I'm open to any advise or experience.
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Originally posted by HBC2193 View PostHi,
We are in month 5 of our TTB process and we are also being asked to separate the public area from the brewing area with a 4' wall and locking tanks when all the brewery's around us have open areas.
Our agent is also spouting off concerns about access to the keg cold room (which is double locked) and our kegging area (which will only be used when not open to the public).
The big question now is what is the TTB/Legal difference between a "brewery with a tasting room" and a "brewpub with a tavern". we applied as the latter but our TTB agent this thinking about having us switch. I'm completely confused now. We're a 2.5 bbl nano that will brew twice a week and be open to serve pints 4 days per week. I'm open to any advise or experience.
We dealt with similar concerns and honestly our specialist was not the greatest at spelling it all out. We were told we could do a 42" separation wall if we had tank locks. Didn't run into any issues with cold room access, but that might have to do with the whole brewery/brewpub issue. As it was explained to me, the only differences between a "brewery" and a "brewpub," as far as the feds are concerned, are when the beer is tax-determined and how tax-determined beer is segregated from non-tax-detemined beer.
If you are a "brewery," you tax-determine when beer is "removed" from the brewery to the tasting room (or for distribution or whatever, but probably mostly to your tasting room in your case). Since you would have some beer that had been taxed and some that had not been taxed and they want to make sure there aren't any mix ups, you basically have to have separate areas to store each, i.e. two cold rooms, or one cold room and keg boxes under your bar. This becomes an issue if you want to run taps out the side of your cooler. In days past you could segregate with an imaginary line and promise not to mess around. Alas, this is no more apparently.
If you are a "brewpub," you can tax-determine when beer is transferred into a serving vessel (keg or serving tank). Since all the packaged beer is now tax-determined, there is no need to segregate any of it. Beer that is on tap can be stored next to beer that is not, no problemo. If you are going to be a smaller operation and focused mainly on your own tasting room, or tavern or whatever they care to call it, this is almost certainly the way to go. You can keep all of the packaged beer together, run taps through your cooler if you choose, and doing your excise taxes should be simpler and easier.
I was told that there are no other differences, as far as the TTB is concerned, between the two designations. I asked multiple times, with my specialist and another person who seemed more experienced, and was firmly told that was the only difference. A brewpub can distribute, package and sell bottles, whatever. Your state may view the designations differently, but the feds don't care about that; the two are completely separate in their minds.
This basically became a two week hiccup for us because we were given the opposite advice from another brewery that went through the process just before us. Had to redo our diagram and descriptions once we finally figured out that we needed to be a "brewpub."
I obviously don't know your specifics, but chances are you probably want to stick with brewpub. If your agent seems the least bit unsure, call and speak to someone else. The people on the main line seem to be the veterans when it comes brewery applications. There's about a billion and a half breweries opening up and apparently some turnover among the agents over there, so definitely some people still learning the ropes. Don't throw your agent under the bus, just politely and directly ask for clarification. It was a big relief for me! The new hold system is basically impossible to get through in my experience, just a great way to lose fifteen minutes and a small piece of your sanity. I left a message and it took them about thirty minutes to call me back. YMMV of course.
Some of your issues may be solved in your security and premises descriptions. Make sure they are detailed, specific, and leave no doubt in their minds that non-taxed beer will be secured from sneaky beer burglars. Your agent should be able to tell you what they need to know, but if not, call and speak to somebody else. Now, I wouldn't dream of telling you to cut corners or mislead anyone, but you don't hear about anybody getting shut down for not having tank locks installed. Maybe you just need to sell some pints before you can actually afford them
Hope this helps!
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right track
Originally posted by Tenmile View PostThank you all for the input in this matter, I think I will take the education route and try to find out what they are really trying to accomplish. Much of this thread responded with advice for dealing with the TTB, I haven't even begun to deal with them yet, I am being asked to build this wall at the city level. Last weekend I visited 13 breweries in the San Diego area. Only one had a physical wall between the brewing area and the public space. I saw things like stacked barrels, stacked kegs, plastic chains, 2x4 bars on pipe and then in one of the best know nationally distributed brands there was virtually nothing! Please continue to post your experiences and I'll follow through with the outcome. Thanks
PS
I couldn't help but post this pic of the virtually nothing border.[ATTACH]33061[/ATTACH]
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