CO2 Regulator for transfers

[Larry Horwitz]

???????? the off gas from the brite tank is going into the FV....which you will be cleaning when it's empty. No issue with venting volitiles. The goal here is to move your product without add O2 or crushing a tank. If your beer isn't finished you shouldn't be sending it to the finish cellar.

[Sir Brewsalot]

Had the same thought initially - then I thought: Maybe he means capping the fermenter prematurely will keep the "bad" gas captive?

On a related note, I thought of pressurizing a devoted (to a fermenter) bright tank with CO2 from the ferment, but have elected to forgo this practice for similar reasons, and spend the $4.00 on CO2 instead. Plus, I'm never really that well-planned on a brew day to set this up.

Scott

[Moonlight]

So in retrospect, I can't say I see the problem I saw before...Yes, there are/can be unpleasant volatiles in the bright (especially in lagers). And one can blow creatures from the bright headspace into and on the top of the finished fermented beer, although chances are slim. The fermenter would be cleaned but the beer could get contaminated. Not all that likely, but worth remembering if the bright wasn't so tasty.
1000 bonus points to the two sharp guys from PA!

[jipjanneke]

On a kind of related note, does anyone pre-purge their empty tanks with CO2 before pumping into to rid O2? Piston purging would potentially help here - charge up to a few psi with CO2, dump/vent, then charge up again and then pump in. Just wondering if anyone actually does it?

[RobZamites]

I do -- I ALWAYS purge/pressurize my serving tanks prior to moving beer into them.

[Larry Horwitz]

Every time. If you don't purge the tank with CO2 from the bottom up for plenty of time you might as well be moving your beer from one take to another with a bucket. It's an o2 nightmare. i've seen orbisphere tests where the beer picks up so much o2 being transferred into an unpurged tank it would oxidize in like 1 week.

purge completly every time and your beer will be better.

[cpelz]

Any thoughts regarding standard practice for tank purging?

Based on Fix's "Analysis of Brewing Techniques" we purge by pressurizing our brights to 15 psi, filling from the bottom. We allow them to sit for half an hour and then exhaust from the CIP mast. The thought being the CO2 settles out of the gas mix and the O2 gets expelled first.

I suspect this is not an efficient use of gas. It seems various methods of purging a tank with gas could be evaluated with an O2 meter. I've never seen this discussed, and lacking an Orbisphere or Mettler-Toledo I've never done it myself.

How do *you* purge?

[RobZamites]

Well, being unable to afford o2 meters or the like, I purge by applying co2 to the stone and bleeding out the CIP arm, with the valve goosed pretty closed (but not completely), and let 'er run for 7-10 minutes. When I check, I put cupped hands under the CIP port and smell -- if my nostril hairs burn, I know I have a SV full of co2

[Sir Brewsalot]

Funny, I also use "Rob's Nose Hair Method". (Maybe he'll become famous for this).

My thinking is that I'm not getting ALL the O2 out, but figure that the concentrations are going to be much higher at the bottom, and since the top portion gets pushed out of the tank as the beer goes in, I should be in decent shape.

To answer an earlier question, I always move into a pressurized bright since I typically cap fermenters to capture the last bit of CO2, so I need a pressurized destination to prevent foam-out. I also use a pump for the x-fer, but I think I said that before...

Cheers,
Scott

[Larry Horwitz]

hey,

the "Rob's Nose Hair Method" sounds decent, but you'd be blown away by the amount of o2 that's still in your tank if you just pressurize and go. Even with the smell manuever there is still a good deal of O2 in there. I'd purge at least 10 mins for smaller (10bblish) tanks. also, the co2 sinking to the bottom thing is all smoke and mirrors / old wives tale. First off....it doesn't really work that way. also, consider the volume of CO2 you're using. When you don't purge all the way you will oxizide your beer by filling the tank. I was talking with someone (Bamforth? can't remember who) who made the very valid point that there is no research to back up the co2 sinks claim...but there is a ton of oxidized beer out there refuting it.

also...I hate to speak ill of those who have passed, but I'd ditch the Fixx book and get into some reading by brewing scientists (kunze, declerk, etal) Fixx was a math professor. He may have been a damn fine homebrewer but he wasn't a brewing professor......

[crassbrauer]

I agree.

CO2 is heavier than O2 and will sink to the bottom after a while, hence the deaths every year among Austrian farmer/vintners in their wine cellars. There is, however, in most brewery situations a large area of mixed gas in tanks. A lot of brewers are under the false notion that CO2 sinks like lead in their freshly purged brewing tanks.

Also, I've seen some false info and even formulas written different ways in Fixx's books. I respect(ed) him a great deal, but wouldn't use his books as the gospel truth.

[kugeman]

If what you guys say is true (and I'm sure you know more about this then I do ) then how much purging is sufficient? I've always...
1)taken my 7bbl tanks up to 10 psi, purged from the bottom, then
2)taken them up to 15 psi, purged from the top and
3)pressurized to 15psi and set up my filter.

But it sounds like this isn't good enough to really get rid of O2...

what would be your suggestion since cleaning under pressure is unfortunately not an option for me?

thanks in advance for any replies...

[beertje46]

You could always fill your tank, from the bottom, with sterile, de-oxy'd water until it flows out the CIP arm. Push the water out with Co2 and charge to 15 psi and filter.

[Sir Brewsalot]

Hutch,
Before you change your procedure, let me ask you: Do you have any oxidation problems?

"Good Enough" may be good enough.

Scott

[crassbrauer]

Just to add my experience to the sound advice in the above two responses:

In a brewpub, which kegged as well, I always just let the CO2 seep ever so slowly in from the bottom of the empty tank with the CIP arm open. When I "smelled" a strong level of CO2, I'd close the tank then top it up with a small amount of pressure. This I'd repeat for the same amount of time the following day. I think this allowed for the mixed gases to separate out somewhat. I never had any problems, even with kegged beer, which would sometimes not be consumed for a couple of months. This requires a little time between batches. This I did at pretty much atmospheric pressure. Pressurizing the tank up to 10 or more psi does increase the amount of CO2 relative to the air. The violent nature of this type of rapid purging, however, doesn't allow for any separation to occur.