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Hello
New to the forum. So far it's been a wealth of knowledge and learning for me. A quick intro - my name is Matt, I'm 24, and am the founder of a Toronto-based Brewing Company (about 4 months old). We currently contract brew and have just 1 core brand - An East Coast style Pale Ale. We've had some issues with the beer since we started brewing. I will try to explain the situation in detail without being too long-winded (apologies, it will still probably be a long post). ANY and ALL input is greatly appreciated.
Problem
Floaties formed in our first commercial size batch (80 hL). Not just small sediment particles that can be in suspension and eventually settle on the bottom of the glass, this is full on chunky sediment. See the 2 pictures attached that clearly have sediment for reference of what we ended up with. Goal for this beer was to be a east coast style APA (not necessarily as heavily hopped as NE style ales, we don't call it New england, but some characteristics of it.) Hazy, aromatic (hops), a little small sediment OK, but needs to not look too unappealing (I find that the Ontario market isn't as receptive or educated on these styles of beers Versus the USA, so I need to work my way into it slowly while educating)
Recipe Notes
Mainly 2-row, 5% flaked oats, 5% flaked wheat.
NO Whirlfloc used.
0.5 pounds / BBL 10 min addition. 0.5 pounds / BBL whirlpool addition. 0.5 pounds /BBL Dry hop. All T90.
Vermont / Conan yeast
Packaging Notes For this batch (2 pictures with obvious sediment) we did first 20ish hL through plate and frame filter, then solely unfiltered pumped the final 60 hL. Packaged in cans.
Other Notes
Unfortunately, we are limited to brewing bigger batches than we'd like (versus small batches more frequently), so shelf life is a concern here. We distribute widely across the province, and if a store is a slower one, the product could get up to 3 months old before being consumed. We don't have the luxury of ensuring our beer is consumed fresh as we simply don't have the demand for it yet, and don't sell direct out of storefront (we'd have more shelf life control if we did).
We did not notice the heavy sediment forming until about 3 weeks after packaging. It seemed to develop and then get worse over time. This occured both cold storage cans and room temp cans. There was no indication of the issue right after packaging.
Side note - we've brewed another batch since. No recipe change. Just packaging change. The brewery got a centrifuge. So we ran first 15% through it, then went straight unfiltered pump over, then remaining 15% through centrifuge. Attached aswell is a picture of this batch fresh( the picture with hazy beer but no sediment). Whether this will also form the heavy sediment over time, only time will tell. My questions below regarding the first heavy sediment batch still stand though, and are below.
Questions
1) What sort of sediment is this? Chill haze? I've seen my fair share of NE style beers, some more sediment than others, but VERY few as bad as my case. What's causing it?
2)Should I use whirlfloc? What amount / BBL? My logic behind not using it was that we use wheat and oats, and want to reap the outcomes of protein haze and mouthfeel, so why cancel those benefits out by using whirlfloc and leaving those proteins in the kettle? But now I'm wondering... If I still use wheat and oats and add whirlfloc, will it leave some of those haze causing and mouthfeel-adding proteins, thus still making wheat and oats beneficial, but remove some of the proteins that might be contributing to my issue that seems to form over time?
What got me thinking about my Question #2 is this article from Cerebral Brewing. http://cerebralbrewing.com/a-hazy-treatise/ The main quote from the article that got me thinking:
"Adding adjuncts to our grain bill. Things like oats, wheat and spelt add mouthfeel and body to the beer. With regard to the haze, it seems that proteins left in the beer could act as nucleation and aggregation points for any number of other molecules. It bears mentioning that we do use Whirlfloc in our boil, which is intended to flocculate proteins and other haze causing agents. Interesting, no? "
Do you think that I have too much, or a certain type of protein in my final product that is acting as nucleation and aggregation point for molecules (Thus slowly building themselves into the big floaties)?
3) From what I understand, to achieve the aroma and associated haze I want, if we choose to continue centrifuging, it has to be a partial centrifuge/ partial un-centrifuged. We dialled down the RPM to the lower limit, and have the beer flow going as fast as allowable, but this results in a product too visually clear for my liking, and has too much aroma stripped out of it. Thus the partial centrifuge. Does anyone think I could go to completely unfiltered (while implementing a new procedure like whirlfloc, or longer tank time) and make an even more aromatic beer that won't have the floatie issue? I'd be interested in that. Remember, I do have the 'restraint' of the necessity of giving the beer a half decently long shelf life due to how we sell and distribute.
Thanks in advance,
Matt
New to the forum. So far it's been a wealth of knowledge and learning for me. A quick intro - my name is Matt, I'm 24, and am the founder of a Toronto-based Brewing Company (about 4 months old). We currently contract brew and have just 1 core brand - An East Coast style Pale Ale. We've had some issues with the beer since we started brewing. I will try to explain the situation in detail without being too long-winded (apologies, it will still probably be a long post). ANY and ALL input is greatly appreciated.
Problem
Floaties formed in our first commercial size batch (80 hL). Not just small sediment particles that can be in suspension and eventually settle on the bottom of the glass, this is full on chunky sediment. See the 2 pictures attached that clearly have sediment for reference of what we ended up with. Goal for this beer was to be a east coast style APA (not necessarily as heavily hopped as NE style ales, we don't call it New england, but some characteristics of it.) Hazy, aromatic (hops), a little small sediment OK, but needs to not look too unappealing (I find that the Ontario market isn't as receptive or educated on these styles of beers Versus the USA, so I need to work my way into it slowly while educating)
Recipe Notes
Mainly 2-row, 5% flaked oats, 5% flaked wheat.
NO Whirlfloc used.
0.5 pounds / BBL 10 min addition. 0.5 pounds / BBL whirlpool addition. 0.5 pounds /BBL Dry hop. All T90.
Vermont / Conan yeast
Packaging Notes For this batch (2 pictures with obvious sediment) we did first 20ish hL through plate and frame filter, then solely unfiltered pumped the final 60 hL. Packaged in cans.
Other Notes
Unfortunately, we are limited to brewing bigger batches than we'd like (versus small batches more frequently), so shelf life is a concern here. We distribute widely across the province, and if a store is a slower one, the product could get up to 3 months old before being consumed. We don't have the luxury of ensuring our beer is consumed fresh as we simply don't have the demand for it yet, and don't sell direct out of storefront (we'd have more shelf life control if we did).
We did not notice the heavy sediment forming until about 3 weeks after packaging. It seemed to develop and then get worse over time. This occured both cold storage cans and room temp cans. There was no indication of the issue right after packaging.
Side note - we've brewed another batch since. No recipe change. Just packaging change. The brewery got a centrifuge. So we ran first 15% through it, then went straight unfiltered pump over, then remaining 15% through centrifuge. Attached aswell is a picture of this batch fresh( the picture with hazy beer but no sediment). Whether this will also form the heavy sediment over time, only time will tell. My questions below regarding the first heavy sediment batch still stand though, and are below.
Questions
1) What sort of sediment is this? Chill haze? I've seen my fair share of NE style beers, some more sediment than others, but VERY few as bad as my case. What's causing it?
2)Should I use whirlfloc? What amount / BBL? My logic behind not using it was that we use wheat and oats, and want to reap the outcomes of protein haze and mouthfeel, so why cancel those benefits out by using whirlfloc and leaving those proteins in the kettle? But now I'm wondering... If I still use wheat and oats and add whirlfloc, will it leave some of those haze causing and mouthfeel-adding proteins, thus still making wheat and oats beneficial, but remove some of the proteins that might be contributing to my issue that seems to form over time?
What got me thinking about my Question #2 is this article from Cerebral Brewing. http://cerebralbrewing.com/a-hazy-treatise/ The main quote from the article that got me thinking:
"Adding adjuncts to our grain bill. Things like oats, wheat and spelt add mouthfeel and body to the beer. With regard to the haze, it seems that proteins left in the beer could act as nucleation and aggregation points for any number of other molecules. It bears mentioning that we do use Whirlfloc in our boil, which is intended to flocculate proteins and other haze causing agents. Interesting, no? "
Do you think that I have too much, or a certain type of protein in my final product that is acting as nucleation and aggregation point for molecules (Thus slowly building themselves into the big floaties)?
3) From what I understand, to achieve the aroma and associated haze I want, if we choose to continue centrifuging, it has to be a partial centrifuge/ partial un-centrifuged. We dialled down the RPM to the lower limit, and have the beer flow going as fast as allowable, but this results in a product too visually clear for my liking, and has too much aroma stripped out of it. Thus the partial centrifuge. Does anyone think I could go to completely unfiltered (while implementing a new procedure like whirlfloc, or longer tank time) and make an even more aromatic beer that won't have the floatie issue? I'd be interested in that. Remember, I do have the 'restraint' of the necessity of giving the beer a half decently long shelf life due to how we sell and distribute.
Thanks in advance,
Matt
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