Originally posted by UnFermentable
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Carbonation in unitank without carbstone
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Originally posted by philipsweden View PostHello all
I have a few questions regarding carbonation. We are starting a brewpub and would like some input on carbonation techniques based on our setup.
We do not have carbstones and can't install them on our tanks.
We do have spunding devices on the tanks and and use these as much as possible but we have to add some external CO2 on which I have a few questions. So these questions relate to the step after we have spunded the tank and cold crashed the beer.
Question 1:
I understand that a method of carbonating the beer fully is basically putting head pressure on the tank with a CO2 to the top of the tank and basically wait for the cold beer to absorb the CO2. We are trying this method and while I can assume this method would save some aroma it is a lengthy process.
Maybe someone can enlighten me on the carbonation charts. If my beer is 3 degrees C and I want say 2.6 volumes of CO2 in my beer the equilibrium pressure is something around 1 bar or (14PSI). Now I understand this is the equilibrium where no CO2 escapes the beer and no CO2 is absorbed by the beer? So if I would like the beer to absorb some CO2 at this temperature I would apply a higher pressure than now 1 bar and wait. Does a higher pressure always mean faster carbonation? Are there any charts available for carbonation levels together with a timeline of this? How long would you estimate this to take with a 4BBL (5HL) tank?
Question 2:
I have heard of some brewers that carbonate from the bottom of the uni-tank without a carbstone. You would open the valve very little and apply external CO2 that you allow to be pushed into the beer. I assume this process is faster that the one described above however with perhaps more loss of aroma? Does anyone have experience with this process and the pros and cons of it?
If I would try this method should I set my CO2 pressure to say 1.5 bar and then slowly bleed off some CO2 from the top of the tank?
Thank you very much for your help!
Hi,
How have you managed the carbonation on your tanks?
I have a exactly setup and idea as yours, I would like to know how you have done and if it is satisfactory now.
Thanks
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NEVER do this!
"You might even consider putting the original PRV above the butterfly..." You should NEVER put the PRV above a butterfly valve. It is bad practice as it allows the PRV to be defeated, and therefore is no longer a safety device. It is also against ASME rules, insurance policies, and GMP. Never allow a safety to be defeated. Safety first. Accidents don't just happen; they're made.
To add to the discussion; the reason rupture disks are not often used on brewing tanks is that when they fail, you lose all pressure in your tank. They do not gently weep overpressure but instead open fully, nearly instantly, and cannot be "reset". On a full tank fully carbonated, that means you will likely have an uncontrollable geyser of foam. Replacing the disk and recarbonating the beer left in the tank will result in a "CO2 bite" and you will have much reduced head retention now that the beer has foamed in the tank. There's a reason that things are done the way they're done. If you have issues with your PRV because you're challenging its limit, then you need better suited tanks. Use colder temperatures instead of higher pressures.Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--
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Originally posted by gitchegumee View Post"You might even consider putting the original PRV above the butterfly..." You should NEVER put the PRV above a butterfly valve. It is bad practice as it allows the PRV to be defeated, and therefore is no longer a safety device. It is also against ASME rules, insurance policies, and GMP. Never allow a safety to be defeated. Safety first. Accidents don't just happen; they're made.
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Originally posted by JulioGDiana View PostDoes it applies for spunding valves too?
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Originally posted by JulioGDiana View PostHi,
How have you managed the carbonation on your tanks?
I have a exactly setup and idea as yours, I would like to know how you have done and if it is satisfactory now.
Thanks
I ended up buying an external carbstone. The carbstone comes inside a rod that I screw on my valve on the tank. I open the valve and the rod get filled with beer and the carbstone can start its job.
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Originally posted by mswebb View PostIf the spunding valve is additive to the devices already on the tank (ie. you have a prv elsewhere on the tank) then you can put the spunding valve on with a butterfly. You will be using the spunding valve to gently manage pressures lower than your prv release at. Even if you close of the spunding valve, the prv will still be in place to protect against over pressure.
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Originally posted by philipsweden View PostHi
I ended up buying an external carbstone. The carbstone comes inside a rod that I screw on my valve on the tank. I open the valve and the rod get filled with beer and the carbstone can start its job.
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Simply putting a carb stone in an external loop as suggested may work but,- May not be fast enough for microbreweries
- May not be reliable enough to repeat the process
Some general background on carbonation systems can be found here: https://beerandbrewing.com/better-ca...ow-technology/
QuantiPerm offers several different economical automatic carbonation systems. For example, one version can deliver 4 vols carbonation from dead flat (think soda) and send the product directly to a packaging line: https://quantiperm.com/quantiperm-pr...em-xflowsurge/Mechanical Engineer, QuantiPerm
www.quantiperm.com
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I'm dealing with this now: I have three unitanks and two BBTs. The brites are full and I need to carb a NEIPA. Easy, right...but I forgot to add the carb stone! So, I'm trying to carb with the stone through the racking arm. I have a site glass so I can see when the bubbles start and it just blows most of the beer out of the arm and then bubbles and gurgles to the top. I'm using a spunding valve which is set to 13psi. I'll just wait it out. The spunding valve is nearing 13psi as I type this, so I expect to see it start bubbling soon. Next time, the stone will be in the port.
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