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Novel (dumb?) idea for minimizing scale in HLT.

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  • Novel (dumb?) idea for minimizing scale in HLT.

    I'm here in the midwest (Ohio), where our (pretty crappy for brewing) water leaves a TON of scale in our HLT. I mean, to call it scale is a misnomer. It's giant f*&%ing rocks. The existing scale seems to be a catalyst for more scale forming on top of it, which got me to thinking:

    Could I hang something else in the HLT, like a porous surfaced object, or a piece of metal with a lot of scale on it already, that might "attract" the minerals to form scale there, instead of on my electric element and the tank walls?

    Like I said, maybe it's a dumb idea, or maybe not. Thought it would be worth asking. Thanks in advance.

  • #2
    If you are chilling your hot wort using cold water then you would be better treating the cold water with acid to remove the bulk of the carbonate / bicarbonate before you pass it through your wort chiller. If you are not, you are probably suffering severe fouling of the wort chiller as well and need to run an acid descale to clean up.

    Typically, acids used are sulphuric, and sometimes phosphoric acid, though some people prefer lactic because it reduces the sulphury smells sometimes arising in beer with a high sulphate content, or because they do not want the dry bitter character given by sulphate. Hydrochloric acid is very rarely used because of the danger of corrosion of stainless by the chlorides / chlorine from hydrochloric acid

    However if the resultant mineral content after treatment with acid is not compatible with the beers you are producing, then consider treatment of all or a large proportion of the "raw" water with an RO plant and add mineral salts back as required afterwards, normally with the mash and / or copper.

    Small RO plants are increasingly cost effective, but you may well benefit from a treated water buffer tank as well as your chilled and hot liquor tanks - so your RO plant runs more or less continuously on brew days.

    If your water is that hard, your CIP water will also benefit from demineralisation as you will be able to use less highly formulated detergents, and reduce the frequency of essential acid washing. If using PAA, this may be largely neutralised by high alkalinity water.
    dick

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    • #3
      Agreed. An RO system is a very effective softener - meaning it removes the minerals that form scale - primarily calcium and magnesium. But unlike a traditional softener, an RO doesn't add anything to the water. A softener exchanges scale forming minerals for sodium. You may need a softener as pretreatment to an RO system. I'd need to know more to advise you in detail.

      Russ
      Water Treatment Systems & Supplies www.BuckeyeHydro.com
      Info@buckeyehydro.com 513-312-2343

      Comment


      • #4
        Why do you consider a water softener might be needed as well / first?

        We RO treated water with about 300 ppm carbonate and silly amounts of Mg and K as well as the normal Ca and a fair bit of SO4 - it was off a limestone aquifer. We didn't pre-treat the feed to the RO plant, but admittedly had something like a 20 -25% concentrate discharge - I don't have the exact figures any more.
        dick

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by dick murton View Post
          Why do you consider a water softener might be needed as well / first?

          We RO treated water with about 300 ppm carbonate and silly amounts of Mg and K as well as the normal Ca and a fair bit of SO4 - it was off a limestone aquifer. We didn't pre-treat the feed to the RO plant, but admittedly had something like a 20 -25% concentrate discharge - I don't have the exact figures any more.
          Water softeners remove scale that would otherwise end up coming out of solution inside the RO membrane. The devil's in the details (water chemistry, RO configuration) here.

          Russ
          Water Treatment Systems & Supplies www.BuckeyeHydro.com
          Info@buckeyehydro.com 513-312-2343

          Comment


          • #6
            Just a few things I've learned setting up our little RO system for my nano, and subsequently shopping for a bigger RO system for our micro.

            RO systems were developed in southern california, were groundwater is warm - so all of the quoted numbers for output are based on 77deg water, with mild hardness, under a certain pressure, etc, etc. Add cold water, or hard water, or lower pressure, and your yield tanks (pun intended).

            The well water at our home is terribly hard, so we have a softener for home use. I plumbed the softened water to the RO system and increased the yield quite a bit. I have an input/output PPM meter and it's about 600PPM in, and 20-30PPM out.

            We will be getting an 2000GPD RO system that will continually fill our CLT. The cold CLT RO water will then be used for knockout, and send back to the HLT to be used for brewing where we can "make" our water with additives. There will definitely be a softener prior to the RO system to increase yield and increase membrane life. I've thought about warming the inflow to the RO with a RIMS tube, but it seems kinda dumb to warm it to then just cool it in the CLT.

            So, back to Sean's Q - would an anode, like in a residential hot water heater, help with his scale problem??

            -Jer.
            Jeremy Reed
            Co-Founder and President, assistant brewer, amateur electrician, plumber, welder, refrigeration tech, and intermediately swell fella
            The North of 48 Brewing Company
            Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

            www.no48.ca

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Jer View Post

              So, back to Sean's Q - would an anode, like in a residential hot water heater, help with his scale problem??

              -Jer.
              No sir. Sacrificial anode rods reduce corrosion of the tank.
              Water Treatment Systems & Supplies www.BuckeyeHydro.com
              Info@buckeyehydro.com 513-312-2343

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks for the last couple of comments about water softening
                dick

                Comment


                • #9
                  RO systems were developed in southern california, were groundwater is warm - so all of the quoted numbers for output are based on 77deg water, with mild hardness, under a certain pressure, etc, etc. Add cold water, or hard water, or lower pressure, and your yield tanks (pun intended).
                  In practice, the two variables that reduce the speed of RO water production ("flux") are temperature and pressure. On RO systems with a pressure pump, we can control the water pressure variable. That leaves us with water temperature. In areas with feedwater significantly colder than 77F, its necessary to either increase the capacity of the RO system or warm the feedwater. These are all things your RO supplier should be taking into account when sizing an RO system for you.

                  The well water at our home is terribly hard, so we have a softener for home use. I plumbed the softened water to the RO system and increased the yield quite a bit.
                  If feeding an RO membrane hard water, scale will form inside the membrane and clog the membrane - reducing the speed of pure water production. Sending softened water to a scaled membrane won't remove this scale, but sending softened water to a new, clean membrane will prevent the scale from forming.

                  Russ
                  Water Treatment Systems & Supplies www.BuckeyeHydro.com
                  Info@buckeyehydro.com 513-312-2343

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Russ - couple q’s:

                    - How helpful with preventing/getting rid of scale are the backflow/backflush options for an RO setup??

                    - What is used to warm the incoming water in most instances??

                    - Is storing/using large volume of RO water a risk to the tank or fittings given its lower pH?

                    Thx for chiming in. It’s good for have or from a pro, instead of amateur talk (ie me)

                    -J.
                    Last edited by Jer; 12-20-2017, 11:57 PM.
                    Jeremy Reed
                    Co-Founder and President, assistant brewer, amateur electrician, plumber, welder, refrigeration tech, and intermediately swell fella
                    The North of 48 Brewing Company
                    Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

                    www.no48.ca

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      How helpful with preventing/getting rid of scale are the backflow/backflush options for an RO setup??
                      The flush valves are a good option. Remember that there is never and "back" about the flush - you never want to run water backwards through an RO membrane. If you get a manual flush - you just have to remember to use it. Although more expensive, and auto flush valve work regardless of if you remember it of not. Because everyone's water profile and use patterns are different, you'll not find any empirical data describing the efficacy of the flush valves however.

                      What is used to warm the incoming water in most instances??
                      A blending valve.

                      Is storing/using large volume of RO water a risk to the tank or fittings given its lower pH?
                      RO water is aggressive - not because of its pH, but because of its purity. Shouldn't be an issue however because you should never have any metal contact (except stainless) with RO water anyway.

                      Thx for chiming in. It’s good for have or from a pro, instead of amateur talk (ie me)
                      Happy to help!

                      Russ
                      Water Treatment Systems & Supplies www.BuckeyeHydro.com
                      Info@buckeyehydro.com 513-312-2343

                      Comment

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