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Thread: Kettle Souring with Lactic Acid

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Stuart, FL
    Posts
    443
    Quote Originally Posted by cpelz View Post
    I'm attributing the vegetal notes to DMS...the grist bill was mostly Pilsner malt and I understand SMM to DMS conversion is retarded at lower pH. My next sour batch will stay in the kettle, feature Pale Ale malt to lower SMM and use Lallamand's dried lactic starter...cheap, pure and convenient...what's not to like?
    That is why I went with a no-boil for the Berliner Weisse I made. If you keep the temps below 80*C or 175*F (I believe that is the threshold) you will not convert the SMM and avoid the issue completely. Of course that is an issue if you want to isomerize any significant amount of alpha acids. I opted for a fairly large addition of hops at the low temperature and short time seeing about 12% of the typical utilization as I would in a boil. I felt there was a nice but subtle nose, and the bitterness was around 4 IBU which was ideal for the style. Had I heated any hotter than 80*C, I would have run a full hour boil (or maybe even 90mins) to evaporate any DMS. There I would have added hops if needing more than about 7 IBUs.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    118
    Interesting re: no boil. I'll have to keep that in mind; it would be fun to try some day.
    Clarke Pelz
    Cynosure Brewing

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    8
    Are you pretreating your water to deal with that alkalinity at all, or just brewing with it as is? I've used both lacto from grains and yogurt to do no boil berliners in the past and greatly preferred the yogurt version. Milk the Funk is a great group for all sorts of spontaneous fermentation discussion also.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Keokuk,IA,Lee
    Posts
    26
    Not planning on pre treating the water. Just using the acid malt at 15% of the grist. Any suggestions on treating the water? It is going to take a lot to buffer it.
    Still unsure about using the yogurt cultures. I need to dig into milk the funk a bit more. We might do a small batch to see what we’re dealing with. The only thing I could think to do with the water is boil it with calcium carbonate then let it sit.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    10

    2 cents

    just my two cents, but a liter of Braggs Apple Cider Vinegar, pitched in at 130 F worked like a charm to get me down to 3.5pH in 48 hours. will update after fermentation/cellaring/packaging are wrapped up...

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Calmar Iowa U.S.A.
    Posts
    99
    hi sam who is,
    wanted to share some of my input on kettle souring. I worked for the last four years at a brewery that was known for their sours. I've brewed probably over a hundred 12bbl batches of clean and bright tasting kettle sours using these procedures. I begin by filling my kettle and heating to a minimum of 90c for 20 min. to pasteurize the wort and kill any of the nasties that come in the grain. after that it is extremely important to rapidly chill to avoid unwanted dms production. I do this by running the wort through the H.E. and directly back into the whirl pool arm while dosing co2 through an in line aeration stone tied in after the H.E. usually was able to chill to below dms range in about 20min and take the entire volume down to 42-46c (prime temp range for lacto activity.) in about 45min. cooling the vessel is necessary or it might warm the wort too much and lacto is pretty temp sensitive in my experience, so I would typically circulate the wort for an additional 15min or so while keeping an eye on temp. some times it would creep up, in that case I would just restart the flow of water through the service side of the H.E. until my temp stabilized. lacto was then pitched and the kettle would be blanketed with co2 through the cip. we got our pitches from BSI in Woodland Park CO. they have 2 varieties of lacto and one pedio. a 10bbl pitch would probably be around $150. I have had great success with these getting a p.h. drop to as low as 2.8 in under 12hrs. we would also draw off about 8-10 gallons of soured wort in to a brink and reuse the lacto time and time again. I have stored this sour wort in a cold room for up to 60 days and have had no issues with loss of viability. after cropping the lacto we would proceed with normal boil procedures. just be sure to not add any hops before the souring or cropping as they will completely retard the lacto. feel free to message me if you want any other specifics.
    cheers.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Adelaide Hills, Australia
    Posts
    13

    Build your own lacto starter

    I'd suggest building up your own lacto starter like other posters here.

    I simply grow up a 20L batch of 10 brix wort with IBS tablets (12 tablets of lacto plantarum) at 30 - 40 deg C for 24+ hours. Then pitch this into 10bbl batch. It's soured up nicely overnight in the kettle.

    Much lower cost for a little more effort.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Keokuk,IA,Lee
    Posts
    26
    Thanks for the great information!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Barberton, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Pivo View Post
    hi sam who is,
    wanted to share some of my input on kettle souring. I worked for the last four years at a brewery that was known for their sours. I've brewed probably over a hundred 12bbl batches of clean and bright tasting kettle sours using these procedures. I begin by filling my kettle and heating to a minimum of 90c for 20 min. to pasteurize the wort and kill any of the nasties that come in the grain. after that it is extremely important to rapidly chill to avoid unwanted dms production. I do this by running the wort through the H.E. and directly back into the whirl pool arm while dosing co2 through an in line aeration stone tied in after the H.E. usually was able to chill to below dms range in about 20min and take the entire volume down to 42-46c (prime temp range for lacto activity.) in about 45min. cooling the vessel is necessary or it might warm the wort too much and lacto is pretty temp sensitive in my experience, so I would typically circulate the wort for an additional 15min or so while keeping an eye on temp. some times it would creep up, in that case I would just restart the flow of water through the service side of the H.E. until my temp stabilized. lacto was then pitched and the kettle would be blanketed with co2 through the cip. we got our pitches from BSI in Woodland Park CO. they have 2 varieties of lacto and one pedio. a 10bbl pitch would probably be around $150. I have had great success with these getting a p.h. drop to as low as 2.8 in under 12hrs. we would also draw off about 8-10 gallons of soured wort in to a brink and reuse the lacto time and time again. I have stored this sour wort in a cold room for up to 60 days and have had no issues with loss of viability. after cropping the lacto we would proceed with normal boil procedures. just be sure to not add any hops before the souring or cropping as they will completely retard the lacto. feel free to message me if you want any other specifics.
    cheers.
    Please excuse my ignorance, but what is the reason for adding CO2 through your carb stone while cooling to lacto pitching temps?

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