Not set up for decoction mash - any suggestions?

[BOB_brewer]

Hey folks!

We're scaling up our pilsner recipe but we're not set up for a decoction mash. I was wondering if anyone had any experience using a really hot sparge (like 190-195F) near the end of runoff to extract some tannins, instead of getting tannins via the boiling decoction.

Anyone tried this before? Any safety and/or flavor issues I may be overlooking?

Thanks for any help!

[beerme]

i don't think tannin extraction is the purpose/ benefit of decoction mashing.


try using german pilsner malt. i like best malt from heidelberg, distributed by countrymalt.

[mswebb]

What temperature steps are you trying to hit?

[blonberg]

i don't think tannin extraction is the purpose/ benefit of decoction mashing.


try using german pilsner malt. i like best malt from heidelberg, distributed by countrymalt.

^^^^^^^THIS!
And I think it would be a good idea to add some German Melanoidin Malt, which is good at mimicking the processes of a decoction mash.

(Though I much prefer Weyermann to Best [BSG], but Best is still good)

[BOB_brewer]

Melanoidins and Tannins

Hey!

Some great points - I agree the decoction is not specifically for tannins. But, in my experience, there is a definite tannic balance found in some classic decoction-mashed pilsners.

We are using a great Weyermann pilsner malt and some Weyermann melanoidin malts to mimic the natural products of a decoction. So I feel confident in those parts of the process, just wondering if anyone had ideas on what kind of character a hot sparge at the end of runoff could produce.

Sadly, we just have the setup for infusion mashes, but we'd like to nail the character of a decoction even with our system.

Thank you again for your tips and help.

[ConversationsFC]

Use a three way tee

So I have been working on this exact process in my head and this is what a came up with.

My thought is to have the tee hooked directly to the pump, that way you could have the wort drain from the mash or the kettle. (maybe even do the same on the output side of the pump) that way you could switch between pumping from the mash to the kettle and vise verse. Or you would just have to move the output hose back and forth to the mash and kettle. This should allow you to do a trueish step mash (with just heating the wort) in most systems. Would just have to make sure your above the minimum level in your kettle.

I have not done it yet but will be doing it tomorrow.

Brad

[rdcpro]

So I have been working on this exact process in my head and this is what a came up with.

My thought is to have the tee hooked directly to the pump, that way you could have the wort drain from the mash or the kettle. (maybe even do the same on the output side of the pump) that way you could switch between pumping from the mash to the kettle and vise verse. Or you would just have to move the output hose back and forth to the mash and kettle. This should allow you to do a trueish step mash (with just heating the wort) in most systems. Would just have to make sure your above the minimum level in your kettle.

I have not done it yet but will be doing it tomorrow.

Brad

This is not the same thing as decoction, though, which involves boiling a thicker part of the mash for an extended period of time.

I'm curious how this turned out for you, though. As a step mash technique, I've tried this on a small scale with a direct fired mash tun, and it's hard to get the temperature to ramp fast enough without overheating the wort. I keep the wort return temp at 160F, but the mash doesn't ramp as quickly as I'd like. I have to believe if I recirculate the wort fast enough and hot enough to ramp at 2-4 degrees F per minute (a standard decoction heating rate), I'm going to denature all the enzymes in the wort. So I only use this for minor temperature corrections, and to mash out.

From what I've read about the various decoction schedules, using a 2 decoction schedule to first reach a sacc rest means you have to hold the decoction itself at saccarification temperature, then finish bringing to a boil. Enzyme destruction doesn't matter so much in the second decoction to mash out.

The other thing is, you boil the decoction for varying lengths of time depending on how dark you want the beer. I don't think you can achieve the same results with a recirculating mash. Like Blonberg says, adding melanoidin malt would get some of the character of decoction without really doing it. Then you can use your recirculating setup to mash out, if it can ramp fast enough to be worthwhile.

So, how did it work out? What was the batch size, and what sort of heating rate were you able to achieve?

Regards,
Mike

[Todd Hicks]

I was able to to a pretty good caramelization fake decoction by pumping my first wort to kettle, heating it up to boil, then pumping back into the mash before starting vorlauf. You could heat the runoff a couple of times I suppose. Then to get extra caramelization, extent the boil.