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Thread: Transfer and CIP pump

  1. #1
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    Transfer and CIP pump

    Hi all, I am in the process of purchasing pump for 10 hL (8.5 bbl) brewhouse and it would be great if someone could check my numbers before final decision.
    Pump will be used as wort transfer and CIP pump.

    After reading everything I could find I managed to calculate required flow and head, probably wrong but numbers are:
    FLOW: Flow rate (l/h) = diam (m) x 3.14 x 1490 = 1.5 x 3.14 x 1490 = 7 m3/h (1856 gpm)
    Calculated based on this article (page 10):
    http://www.spxflow.com/en/assets/pdf...tcm11-7665.pdf
    HEAD: pressure drop in static CIP head (1.5bar) + tank heigh = 15 + 2= 17 m (56 ft)

    I know everyone is suggesting CPE pumps but they are not easily available in EU, so my options that suit above needs are Ebara DWO/E 400 and Lowara CO 350/15/D with these specs, both with VFD:
    Ebara DWO/E 400: 4 hp, open impeller, 1.5" input, 1.25" output
    https://www.ebara-pumps-online.com/a...-Pumps-91.html

    Lowara CO 350/15/D: 2 hp, open impeller, 2" input, 1" output
    http://www.pumpstock.co.uk/lowara-co...ase-range.html

    Diagram comparison:
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    What would be your choice between two and is there something I am overlooking?
    What seal do you suggest for CIP (viton, epdm..)?

    Thank you for any help!

  2. #2
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    168 views and no reply?

    Any help is highly appropriated.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
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    Kent, WA
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    If the ebara is nearly 300 gpm (US) at open discharge, that seems like way too much pump for wort transfer for 8.5 bbl, even with a VFD. Using one pump for CIP and wort transfer means a compromise must be made. I'd think the lowara would be a better compromise, but that may be too much pump as well. The pump curve seems adequate for CIP, but you'll still want to dial it down with the VFD for wort transfer. At least, IMO. Hopefully someone else will chime in as well.

    Have you compared the pump curves with the one CPE recommends for the application? The one they have for 5-10 bbl is only 1 hp, with 75 GPM (presumably open discharge flow) and 65 ft head (presumably shutoff head). That's well under the specs for either of your pumps in terms of flow rate. So it may be that neither of those pumps are the right choice for you.

    Regards,
    Mike Sharp

  4. #4
    Join Date
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    Location
    Burnaby BC Canada
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    Transfer and CIP pump

    Hello,

    First your math is a little off. 7 m3/h is only 30 GPM not 1856 gpm, but the curves you used are in m3/hr so it self corrected anyway.

    A few points

    1) the DWO/E 400 is way to big and the duty point is in a bad place on the curve. You really want to try to stay near the BEP, (best efficiency point) which for this pump would be around 30 m3/h.

    2) the Lowara CO 350 is a better size but not a good fit.

    3) neither of these pumps are food grade. You should look for a sanitary pump if you want to make good beer, long term.

    Here is a pump curve for our C114 pump. You will see the duty point is on the 3/4 HP curve, so a 1 HP is plenty for what you want to do.

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    We do make these C series pumps for the EU market with metric IEC motors and have quite a few in Europe already.

    However, if you want to buy local there are good suppliers in Europe. I would recommend INOXPA from Spain. Their Hyginox SE-15 is a good fit, well priced and is a very good pump. It is sanitary and has a internal seal good for high temperatures. In fact we have just received a large order of them for the North American market that we will be introducing at CBC this year.

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    If you want for information on either of these pumps and/or where to get them in Europe please email us and we will be happy to help you.

    Best regards
    Your CPE Systems Team!
    CPE Systems Inc.
    800-668-2268
    CPEsystems.com
    Thinkpumps.com
    sales@cpesystems.com

  5. #5
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    @Mike
    ebara is actually in range of 30 gpm at 56ft, but yes, compromise must be made and I hope to manage it with VFD.

    @CPESystems
    I misspelled it, 1856 is gal per Hour not minute...

    Quote Originally Posted by CPESystems View Post
    3) neither of these pumps are food grade. You should look for a sanitary pump if you want to make good beer, long term.
    I am still novice with pumps but doesn't food grade pumps requires food grade materials casing (SS) and sealing (EPDM), and to be sanitary they need to have open impeller?
    Maybe I am missing bigger picture here, but what makes these pumps unsanitary and not food grade?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by darko View Post
    @Mike
    ebara is actually in range of 30 gpm at 56ft, but yes, compromise must be made and I hope to manage it with VFD.
    Sure, at 56 ft head, but that means you'd have to throttle it when you're pumping from, say the whirlpool to a fermenter, when the actual head will be closer to open discharge. The VFD will turn down a centrifugal pump to an extent, but it seems like you'll be operating at the low end, and I've found they don't scale linearly like that. I still think it's too much pump.

    Quote Originally Posted by darko View Post

    I am still novice with pumps but doesn't food grade pumps requires food grade materials casing (SS) and sealing (EPDM), and to be sanitary they need to have open impeller?
    Maybe I am missing bigger picture here, but what makes these pumps unsanitary and not food grade?
    Sanitary pumps can be quickly disassembled for cleaning, usually without tools. Good ones should be electropolished on the inside, but at the least it should meet the European equivalent of 3A for surface finish, with no place that can harbor nastiness. Yes, open impellers are good, but the impeller should also be easily cleanable. They don't typically have threaded connections, though I've repaired many that do. It's more than just materials. Also, a wort pump should probably have (or can be retrofitted with) a seal wash for the sake of longevity.

    Also, an impeller design that offers low shear is an advantage, IMO.

    For the hot side, or strictly CIP applications, maybe this doesn't matter, but using it on cold side transfers means you need to be really confident in the sanitation of the pump. Re-reading your original post, I don't know if you're planning on using it for that though.

    Regards,
    Mike Sharp

  7. #7
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    Thanks for suggestions.

    I will use it for hot side transfer, with CO2 for beer moving.

    After watching diagrams for CPEs C110 and C114 models that are most suggested, I see that pumps I wrote about are way too strong (in terms of HP) but again, this is what these pumps require for given flow/head.

    Could it be that my calculations are off and less flow/head is needed than 7m3/h at 17m (30gpm at 56ft)?
    My logic was to calculate specs by the most challenging conditions (CIP for 20 bbl FV).

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by darko View Post
    Thanks for suggestions.

    I will use it for hot side transfer, with CO2 for beer moving.

    After watching diagrams for CPEs C110 and C114 models that are most suggested, I see that pumps I wrote about are way too strong (in terms of HP) but again, this is what these pumps require for given flow/head.

    Could it be that my calculations are off and less flow/head is needed than 7m3/h at 17m (30gpm at 56ft)?
    My logic was to calculate specs by the most challenging conditions (CIP for 20 bbl FV).
    I'm not nearly the expert in pumps that the CPE guys are, but the way I look at it is this: You want a pump that performs in both scenarios--one requires good flow at high head, and the other is all about low head flow. You're only going to be running this pump at 17m of head when you're pumping into that much pressure, which means your spray ball. So work back from the head/flow requirements of that (and really, since it a compromise, not much more than the minimum requirements for the sprayball). Then find a low head flow (open or low head discharge for wort transfer) that seems manageable. You don't want to throttle the flow to slow it down, so you need to figure out the pump curve for the lower speed of your pump. Ideally you have pump curves for a variety of RPM. If the pump is a two pole motor, it's around 2850 RPM at 50Hz, and 1450 at 25Hz. Using the Hyginox SE-15 example CPE mentioned, you can see they provide a curve for both speeds. You can see the pump performance envelope curves here on page 4. Make sure both use cases are within the envelope.

    So let's say at 50hz your pump is around 7m3/h at 17m head. Does your sprayball need that much? If the pump is on a cart, you move it around to your fermenters for CIP, so you don't need to overcome 50m of hose. The SE-15 curve is nice and flat for a wide variety of flows at high head, so it looks like it's fine for CIP under those conditions. But that's way too much for transferring wort, so you'll need to slow it down. At 1450 RPM, the flow maxes out at a reasonable rate for a much lower head, in a pretty good range for a 10hl brewhouse.

    The difference is in the impeller design. Look at how the sanitary impeller is shaped, compared to the pumps you're looking at. It's designed with a backward curve for low shear and will lose efficiency as the RPM goes down, so you can get a much wider range of flows and pressures out of it.

    Finally, remember you can get a variety of impeller diameters, so even with a given pump, you have the ability to create "wiggle room" if your situation changes, or you didn't figure it out quite right. The SE-15 comes with either 75mm, 90mm or 105mm impellers. Need more pressure/flow? Go to a larger impeller. Too much pressure/flow? Try a smaller one.

    Regards,
    Mike Sharp

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