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Thread: Mash Tun heating methods on a Direct Fire system

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
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    Hamburg, Hamburg, Germany
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    Question Mash Tun heating methods on a Direct Fire system

    Hi everyone,

    I've been pretty much living on ProBrewer for the past few months, but somehow there is one topic that I can't seem to find any good answers on. Any help, guidance and novel ideas are highly appreciated!

    We are starting up a 10 bbl brewery; configuration MT + LT + BKW with a HLT. We are currently finalising the design of the brewhouse, and haven't placed any equipment orders yet.
    In an ideal world, we would go with a steam boiler, and have all vessels steam-jacketed, except for the Lauter Tun. However, this being the real world with crazy boiler regulations and hidden costs, we are seriously considering a direct fire system instead. This is fine for the HLT and BKW, but what we're struggling with most is the MT. Our brewery will have a big focus on using crazy exotic grains, which means it is paramount for us to have full control of temperature adjustments inside the mash tun. We are considering a few options, but none of them seem foolproof or ideal.

    Challenge: Adjusting temperature (heating) of mash tun (for multi-step mashing) without steam jackets.

    Our question to the brewing community: What equipment setup / method would you recommend to us to achieve above goal?

    Below, I have detailed the different options we are considering. We would appreciate any comments or recommendations, either on choosing one of below setups, or any other setup that you think would work well for us.

    Many thanks in advance!

    Possible options we are considering:

    1. Step Infusion Mash: simply add hot water from the HLT in the right amount for every step increase, to reach the next desired temperature
      Pros: easiest headache-free method; cheapest; immediate temperature jumps; no pumping around of mash; no burner needed
      Cons: increasingly diluted mash (first step thick mash, last step very thin mash) - is this a big issue? Also, infusion additions inherently limit the temperature that could be reached in mash tun. So decoctions would have to be pumped over to boil kettle for boiling.
      Other considerations:
    2. Direct Fire: having a (forced air) burner underneath the mash tun.
      Pros: easy to implement; easy to work with; quick heating; no pumping around of mash, decoction boiling or gelatinisation rests can be performed directly in mash tun (liquid mash pumped to lauter tun)
      Cons: denaturing of enzymes due to extreme temperatures; scorching of grain material leading to off-flavours; general fatigue on vessel metal; dirty mess to clean up; additional exhaust vent; adds to noise
      Other considerations:
      • We will have an agitator (mixer) inside the mash tun. This could at least help with better heat distribution, and possibly alleviate the scorching/denaturing issues. Or is that just wishful thinking?
      • Maybe a relatively low-power burner, or some other type of burner that has better heat distribution (e.g. venturi burner?), would allow for more temperate heating?
    3. Indirect Fire: I have seen this term being thrown around on the forums. Seems this involves having jacketing similar to steam jacketing around the vessel, but instead of steam you have the hot burner gases entering the jackets.
      Pros: similar to direct fire, slightly more even heat distribution; more efficient?
      Cons: burner gases are much hotter than steam, so you would remain with the scorching and denaturing concerns as with normal direct fire above. Risk of dry-fire if mash not covering the jacketing fully, and general fatigue of metal. I'm particularly concerned this would warp the vessel and break down quickly - delicate jacketing and extremely hot gases, probably not a good combo. As with DF: also dirty, additional vent required, noisy.
    4. HERMS: this is a common homebrew setup. Pumping the wort through a circulation loop, through a coil submerged in the HLT, back to mash tun.
      Pros: no need for burner (and associated cons); no risk of scorching/denaturing enzymes; relatively easy to implement and control
      Cons: slow heating (small temperature differential between mash temp and HLT temp); grains getting stuck inside the pump and coil (this is my main concern); tougher to clean; coil in HLT, no decoction in mash tun
      Other considerations:
      • Pump could be sped up to increase heat exchange speed. But I don't like the idea of pumping around porridge, especially with our special grains...
      • HLT temperature could be increased, but then we would be back to denaturing enzymes.
    5. Hot Water Jacketing: similar to steam-jacketing, but instead of steam you would circulate hot water from HLT through the jackets.
      Pros: no need for burner; no risk of scorching/denaturing; easy to implement and control; no pumping of mash; easy to clean; heating would be quicker than HERMS if using hotter water from HLT
      Cons: decoction not possible in mash tun, ...?? very few I can think of, to be honest. The water temperature in the HLT would need to be ramped up significantly to perform quicker step temperature increases, but the heat exchange would lower this again and then cold tap water can be mixed into HLT just before sparging to bring back to 75C.
      Other considerations:
      • This is not something I've come across yet, and I was wondering why? Is there some obvious reason this is not a good idea process/design-wise, or simply wouldn't work?
      • Would the jacketing need to be different than for steam jacketing? i.e. could I simply use a steam-jacketed vessel, and hook up hot water hoses to it as opposed to steam piping? Or would some adjustments be necessary?
    6. Decoction via boil kettle: pumping over a portion of the thick "solid" mash to the boil kettle, boiling that, then pumping back over into mash tun to raise mash temperature
      Pros: it's a functioning method
      Cons: labour and time intensive, clogged pumps, no parallel batch brewing, overall not a very flexible method


    Kind regards, and again many thanks to all those contributing,
    Dieter

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    BEMIDJI, MN
    Posts
    139
    I've heard reports of good performance of electric systems at the 10bbl scale. You could run a HERMS or other recirculation/element setup to tackle the mash heating. Everything else should be pretty standard and straightforward for an electric system.

    The only other thing I would consider is a dedicated mash tun vs a combination MLT. Having a rake configuration that is solely designed to mix the mash while doing steps may be crucial if you are placing stock in that being a big part of your beers. Most MLT in the 7 - 15 bbl range are only OK at mash mixing and lautering/grain-out. It may be best to have each process designed solely for its own needs.

    Ultimately, whatever you choose should be easy to operate and eliminate too many headaches just to achieve a mash profile that you may be incorporating into EVERY beer you brew. Pulling decoctions or jerry-rigging hot water jacketing on a system that wasn't designed for either will take the fun out of brewing quickly.
    Last edited by BemidjiBrewing; 04-05-2018 at 06:02 PM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    13
    HERMs I think would be pretty slow depending on the size, it's difficult to do mash outs in a reasonable amount of time and a stuck mash is still very possible.

    Hot water seems interesting, I can't see anything wrong with using 200F water to step mash, I suppose this could be tested with water in a jacketed fermentor - you could mimic rake action by using a pump to agitate the water.

    Indirect heat seems like a good option, but I've yet to see really specific information for it - I think it still requires an insulated skirt around the bottom of the kettle, and that skirt sort of extends around the outside of the main kettle, and then requires good ventilation like you mentioned, so not quite the same as a steam jacket, but a good alternative to direct fire. Would love to hear more from those who use it though.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Jameson, SK, Canada
    Posts
    164
    Hi, here’s my 2cents. I know a lot about my 1BBL HERMS system that I built and is my baby, and I’m learning a lot about the 20BBL 3 vessel (MLT-BK-WP) system that we have coming. I’m no lifelong pro, but I am what you’d call an “outside the box thinker”.

    To shorten your read, you can stop here if you’d like: GET STEAM, and put a jacket on your MT.

    Why do I say this?

    Steam isn’t cheap, you’re right, however, it’s not that bad and you have to remember that being cheap today will force you to live with this decision for many many years. Many many years of high electricity bills, replacing expensive 3ph elements, high electrical setup/install costs, etc. Also, your proposed ideas are very good, and tell me that you have indeed read a lot and you have a good grasp on this stuff - but they aren’t cheap either!! If you keep to a low pressure steam system (<1bar, 14.7psi) you do not have to worry too much about CRN numbers, etc.

    There’s something about steam’s ability to transfer heat better than water too - just can’t remember it right now.

    If your goal is to do fancy multi step mashes, fancy grains, etc, steam is absolutely the way to go, with a well designed control panel (Ryan at Craft Automation has been a gem for us). Your goals, unfortunately, do not blend well with a bare bones budget.

    HERMS/RIMS?? I asked this same question about 6 months ago, and it was met with the all-to-common “pro breweries don’t do that”. I now know enough to challenge this blanket statement made by sales people who are not engineers, and have brewed exactly zero batches of beer in their lives. Knowing what I know about my 1BBL HERMS, driven by 12000w of elements in the HLT, I can tell you that the heating times and changes DO NOT take that long. This is nothing more than a calculation of power and heat transfer, and that is scalable. With enough heating power in your HLT, and the proper HX, you certainly could run a HERMS type system. The mixing and no risk of scorching offers very nice price of mind. Now, the downside is that then your entire HLT is at 170degF at the end of every run. If you’re going to do multiple runs in a day, that may be an issue for mash-in #2,3,4, especially if you’re wanting to use RO water as your mash water. Now, that could be resolved with a CLT...or by using a RIMS type setup.

    Another option to HERMS/RIMS coil in your HLT would be a shell and tube or plate HX, but then why not just get a jacketed MT and steam??

    Get some quotes on a rite atmospheric boiler - we paid about 18kUSD for ours. It’s an 85 I believe.. Adding a jacket to our MLT added about 1500$, which is pennies in the grand scheme.

    Something else that comes to my mind - have you considered an MLT instead of the cost of MT-LT?? I know that every added vessel shortens your brew day, but it also is another $55k (CDN) and take up a lot more space. If you have a good gryst hydrator, mixing should be pretty good without a mash mixer. Put a jacket on the MLT and you’re laughing. Just a thought.

    Another money saving point, that I’m sure someone will bash me for, is looking to China for prices. We have not yet received ours, but they’ve been professionally inspected by an independent engineering firm, and all passed. We saved 50+% on all of our tanks - HLT and CLT included. Dealing with our supplier in Jinan has been nothing but a pleasure. Tonnes of customization without pushback or added cost. Pleasant. Responsive. I didn’t have the balls to have our brewhouse built in China, but if our tanks go well I might ok round 2. I know I’m gonna get lit up for mentioning his, but biz is biz, and after my early experiences with some (you know who you are) NA manufacturers (most of which are nothing more than brokerage houses for Chinese made gear) I’m not impressed. Something to think about...

    One last thing. One of the most famous brewhouse build mistakes is undersizing. Brewhouse are like timbits (Canadian reference). 3BBL will cost you 200k, 5BBL 250k, 10BBL 300k, 20BBL 325k. My numbers may not be bang on, but the principle is there. If you have the space, and the market potential, don’t go small. Brewery equipment is a bitch to sell.

    Oh, one more last thing...(Steve Jobs)...I now know that brewing can be done in a million different ways. In a world with millions of different possibilties, there is always a million (maybe even a billion) different opinions. Some people like to state their opinion as if it was FACT. Choose who you listen to wisely. Have they tried what they’re talking about?? Are they trying to sell you something?? Does the suggestion pass the BS sniff test?? Did they approach it with an open mind, or just say “we don’t do that”??

    Have fun with your planning and build. This SHOULD be fun!!

    JR
    Last edited by Jer; 04-08-2018 at 10:49 PM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Hamburg, Hamburg, Germany
    Posts
    10
    Thanks everyone for your informative and detailed advice. It's good to see that there are many roads that lead to Rome, and in this case, to good beer.

    Your detailed post has given me a lot of food for thought JR, and on second thought using steam seems to make much more financial sense if we consider that it allows us to save on a dedicated MT. It doesn't quite save me $55k as you mentioned, but if you add the cost savings of a separate MT vessel + PD mash pump + all 3 burners, along with Steam-jacketed vessels being cheaper than Direct-Fired ones, the cost difference is actually not that crazy anymore!

    So now, the decision would be between a 2-vessel steam system (MLT + BKW), and a 3-vessel direct fire system (MT + LT + BKW). I know which one I prefer!

    Which brings me to a new (updated) question:
    If we go for the 2-vessel steam system above (MLT + BKW), we would have steam jacketing on the MLT. This means we must find a way of mixing inside the MLT to distribute the heat during step mash. We have asked for a height-adjustable raking system for cutting through the top of grain bed to aid the lauter if need be, and this raking system includes a separate "plough"/plow on a bar linkage that can be lowered manually with a chain after lauter is complete, to help push out the spent grains. See picture.
    Q: I was wondering if we could lower this plough during the mash heating, and then run the raking system so that the plough would act as a mixer of sorts to help distribute the steam-jacket heat? Or is this not advisable? If not, what would you suggest?

    Many thanks again for all the advice!
    Dieter

    Name:  1_plough.jpg
Views: 1643
Size:  27.0 KB

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Jameson, SK, Canada
    Posts
    164
    I don't know enough about rakes or mixers to comment, but I'm interested to hear what others have to say.

    JR
    Jeremy Reed
    Co-Founder and President, assistant brewer, amateur electrician, plumber, welder, refrigeration tech, and intermediately swell fella
    The North of 48 Brewing Company
    Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

    www.no48.ca

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Jameson, SK, Canada
    Posts
    164
    Been reading about plate HXís lately. I donít know that itís been done, but you could add one to your vorlauf/recirc loop and raise your temp as you circulate. You could use steam or hot water to do it, and then thereís no worry of scorching, etc. I suppose itís essentially a RIMS setup, like you mentioned a couple days ago....

    This one would do it for you:

    https://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=HX3260DW

    The DW = double wall. Keeps the wort away from the heating medium.
    Jeremy Reed
    Co-Founder and President, assistant brewer, amateur electrician, plumber, welder, refrigeration tech, and intermediately swell fella
    The North of 48 Brewing Company
    Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

    www.no48.ca

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    6
    Sounds like you are dealing with some pretty serious regulations in Germany regarding steam boiler operation. I do know that the engineers at rolec.de have previously designed a high pressure hot water system. It provides heat trasfer characteristics similar to steam with out the need for a steam boiler. Maybe you could run it by them.
    Regarding using the grain out plow as a mash mixer - I seriously doubt that you would get adequate mixing that way. The primary purpose of mixing during heating of mash is to assure heat uniformity. Generally the mixers are designed to cause the mash to circulate from bottom to top.
    My advice is always that breweries should have separate Mash Cookers. They give superior results, flexibility and throughput. If that cost is an obstacle. I would just stick with underletting and having only 2-step program; you can actually get a lot of milage out of that but not sure how that would fit in with some exotic grains program...
    Cheers! Hope that is of some value.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    Highpoint NC
    Posts
    5

    Best of Both

    Quote Originally Posted by Jer View Post
    Hi, hereís my 2cents. I know a lot about my 1BBL HERMS system that I built and is my baby, and Iím learning a lot about the 20BBL 3 vessel (MLT-BK-WP) system that we have coming. Iím no lifelong pro, but I am what youíd call an ďoutside the box thinkerĒ.

    To shorten your read, you can stop here if youíd like: GET STEAM, and put a jacket on your MT.

    Why do I say this?

    Steam isnít cheap, youíre right, however, itís not that bad and you have to remember that being cheap today will force you to live with this decision for many many years. Many many years of high electricity bills, replacing expensive 3ph elements, high electrical setup/install costs, etc. Also, your proposed ideas are very good, and tell me that you have indeed read a lot and you have a good grasp on this stuff - but they arenít cheap either!! If you keep to a low pressure steam system (<1bar, 14.7psi) you do not have to worry too much about CRN numbers, etc.

    Thereís something about steamís ability to transfer heat better than water too - just canít remember it right now.

    If your goal is to do fancy multi step mashes, fancy grains, etc, steam is absolutely the way to go, with a well designed control panel (Ryan at Craft Automation has been a gem for us). Your goals, unfortunately, do not blend well with a bare bones budget.

    HERMS/RIMS?? I asked this same question about 6 months ago, and it was met with the all-to-common ďpro breweries donít do thatĒ. I now know enough to challenge this blanket statement made by sales people who are not engineers, and have brewed exactly zero batches of beer in their lives. Knowing what I know about my 1BBL HERMS, driven by 12000w of elements in the HLT, I can tell you that the heating times and changes DO NOT take that long. This is nothing more than a calculation of power and heat transfer, and that is scalable. With enough heating power in your HLT, and the proper HX, you certainly could run a HERMS type system. The mixing and no risk of scorching offers very nice price of mind. Now, the downside is that then your entire HLT is at 170degF at the end of every run. If youíre going to do multiple runs in a day, that may be an issue for mash-in #2,3,4, especially if youíre wanting to use RO water as your mash water. Now, that could be resolved with a CLT...or by using a RIMS type setup.

    Another option to HERMS/RIMS coil in your HLT would be a shell and tube or plate HX, but then why not just get a jacketed MT and steam??

    Get some quotes on a rite atmospheric boiler - we paid about 18kUSD for ours. Itís an 85 I believe.. Adding a jacket to our MLT added about 1500$, which is pennies in the grand scheme.

    Something else that comes to my mind - have you considered an MLT instead of the cost of MT-LT?? I know that every added vessel shortens your brew day, but it also is another $55k (CDN) and take up a lot more space. If you have a good gryst hydrator, mixing should be pretty good without a mash mixer. Put a jacket on the MLT and youíre laughing. Just a thought.

    Another money saving point, that Iím sure someone will bash me for, is looking to China for prices. We have not yet received ours, but theyíve been professionally inspected by an independent engineering firm, and all passed. We saved 50+% on all of our tanks - HLT and CLT included. Dealing with our supplier in Jinan has been nothing but a pleasure. Tonnes of customization without pushback or added cost. Pleasant. Responsive. I didnít have the balls to have our brewhouse built in China, but if our tanks go well I might ok round 2. I know Iím gonna get lit up for mentioning his, but biz is biz, and after my early experiences with some (you know who you are) NA manufacturers (most of which are nothing more than brokerage houses for Chinese made gear) Iím not impressed. Something to think about...

    One last thing. One of the most famous brewhouse build mistakes is undersizing. Brewhouse are like timbits (Canadian reference). 3BBL will cost you 200k, 5BBL 250k, 10BBL 300k, 20BBL 325k. My numbers may not be bang on, but the principle is there. If you have the space, and the market potential, donít go small. Brewery equipment is a bitch to sell.

    Oh, one more last thing...(Steve Jobs)...I now know that brewing can be done in a million different ways. In a world with millions of different possibilties, there is always a million (maybe even a billion) different opinions. Some people like to state their opinion as if it was FACT. Choose who you listen to wisely. Have they tried what theyíre talking about?? Are they trying to sell you something?? Does the suggestion pass the BS sniff test?? Did they approach it with an open mind, or just say ďwe donít do thatĒ??

    Have fun with your planning and build. This SHOULD be fun!!

    JR
    I agree with JR- Steam is king BUT, a small hot water plate HX in the vorlof would be one way to achieve step- on a non jacketed mash tun. The guys at BrewFabUSA did a great job of walking me through both options. They are an American Fabricator in Florida with some great references. Also to JR's point, they offer a line of import cellar equipment to complement the American made brewhouse. This helped keep us in budget. We also got a good price on Rite boiler and GD chiller, kegwashers and installation and support. www.brewfabusa.com

    ryan

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Guadalajara, Mexico.
    Posts
    6

    Fotos

    Has anybody Photos of such a indirect fired chamber where the flame is enclosed? I want to convert my direct fired and enclose the flame to not lose too much heat

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Calmar Iowa U.S.A.
    Posts
    105

    Plow in a MLT

    Quote Originally Posted by dieterneck View Post
    Thanks everyone for your informative and detailed advice. It's good to see that there are many roads that lead to Rome, and in this case, to good beer.

    Your detailed post has given me a lot of food for thought JR, and on second thought using steam seems to make much more financial sense if we consider that it allows us to save on a dedicated MT. It doesn't quite save me $55k as you mentioned, but if you add the cost savings of a separate MT vessel + PD mash pump + all 3 burners, along with Steam-jacketed vessels being cheaper than Direct-Fired ones, the cost difference is actually not that crazy anymore!

    So now, the decision would be between a 2-vessel steam system (MLT + BKW), and a 3-vessel direct fire system (MT + LT + BKW). I know which one I prefer!

    Which brings me to a new (updated) question:
    If we go for the 2-vessel steam system above (MLT + BKW), we would have steam jacketing on the MLT. This means we must find a way of mixing inside the MLT to distribute the heat during step mash. We have asked for a height-adjustable raking system for cutting through the top of grain bed to aid the lauter if need be, and this raking system includes a separate "plough"/plow on a bar linkage that can be lowered manually with a chain after lauter is complete, to help push out the spent grains. See picture.
    Q: I was wondering if we could lower this plough during the mash heating, and then run the raking system so that the plough would act as a mixer of sorts to help distribute the steam-jacket heat? Or is this not advisable? If not, what would you suggest?

    Many thanks again for all the advice!
    Dieter

    Name:  1_plough.jpg
Views: 1643
Size:  27.0 KB
    The very first brewery I worked at was a 12 bbl system and we did a lot of step mashing, and used a lot of specialty grains. We had a steam jacketed MLT and a BKW. The MLT had a mixer/ plow combo thing like in your picture. I personally would advise against trying to use the plow for anything but grain out. I made that mistake once and it smashed grain into the grates so badly that lauter was impossible. But as long as the "spear point" shaped fins on the mixer have a good angle to them, (pointing down) and are connected to a vfd controller you should be able to get good, even mix while step mashing.

    On another subject, we didn't really have the ability to do true decoction mashing, instead we would do what we called a "slims" procedure. We would run a quick vorlauft, then lauter a couple of bbls to the kettle and bring to a boil. Then pump it back into the MLT through the bottom while mixing to raise the temp to the next step. It worked pretty good, but I always wished we had a separate 3-4 bbl cereal cooker vessel and a solids pump. Some days I would trade my WP vessel for a good cereal cooker!

    At the end of the day you can do a lot with a 2 vessel system! It just takes a bit of experimentation.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    china
    Posts
    10

    plow with raker

    Quote Originally Posted by dieterneck View Post
    Thanks everyone for your informative and detailed advice. It's good to see that there are many roads that lead to Rome, and in this case, to good beer.

    Your detailed post has given me a lot of food for thought JR, and on second thought using steam seems to make much more financial sense if we consider that it allows us to save on a dedicated MT. It doesn't quite save me $55k as you mentioned, but if you add the cost savings of a separate MT vessel + PD mash pump + all 3 burners, along with Steam-jacketed vessels being cheaper than Direct-Fired ones, the cost difference is actually not that crazy anymore!

    So now, the decision would be between a 2-vessel steam system (MLT + BKW), and a 3-vessel direct fire system (MT + LT + BKW). I know which one I prefer!

    Which brings me to a new (updated) question:
    If we go for the 2-vessel steam system above (MLT + BKW), we would have steam jacketing on the MLT. This means we must find a way of mixing inside the MLT to distribute the heat during step mash. We have asked for a height-adjustable raking system for cutting through the top of grain bed to aid the lauter if need be, and this raking system includes a separate "plough"/plow on a bar linkage that can be lowered manually with a chain after lauter is complete, to help push out the spent grains. See picture.
    Q: I was wondering if we could lower this plough during the mash heating, and then run the raking system so that the plough would act as a mixer of sorts to help distribute the steam-jacket heat? Or is this not advisable? If not, what would you suggest?

    Many thanks again for all the advice!
    Dieter

    Name:  1_plough.jpg
Views: 1643
Size:  27.0 KB
    better not plow with raker as "mixer" , or only at very shallow depth. with VFD motor/reducer you may distritube the heating/mixing the mash good with plow knife.


    randy
    project manager from yolong brewtech

    randy@yolongbrewtech.com

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