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CIP rotating spray balls recomendations

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  • CIP rotating spray balls recomendations

    Hello,

    I have a 7bbl MLT and Kettle and an looking for some decent rotating spray balls that won't break the bank. The current ones that came with the tanks from China are awful and will pretty much be useless. Any help is greatly appreciated

    Sean

  • #2
    Hey Sean,
    We sell a couple spray balls that might interest you.
    I highly recommend this one.
    If you have any questions you can always call us!
    1-800-668-2268
    Your CPE Systems Team!
    CPE Systems Inc.
    800-668-2268
    CPEsystems.com
    Thinkpumps.com
    sales@cpesystems.com

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by CPESystems View Post
      Hey Sean,
      We sell a couple spray balls that might interest you.
      I highly recommend this one.
      If you have any questions you can always call us!
      1-800-668-2268
      Thanks for reaching out. Those look great but unfortunately are out of our price range at the moment.


      Sean

      Comment


      • #4
        Let me ask you this, why rotating? I have had nothing but issues with rotators. Locking up mid CIP, bearings wearing out. I have 14 tanks with stationary with no issues.
        Joel Halbleib
        Partner / Zymurgist
        Hive and Barrel Meadery
        6302 Old La Grange Rd
        Crestwood, KY
        www.hiveandbarrel.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Why rotating

          Static spray balls only impact (and very lightly) very small areas of your tank and rely almost totally on the chemical cleaning capability of your CIP solution.

          Rotary spray heads clean tanks by spraying a fan of cleaning media against the tank walls while rotary jet heads spray jets of cleaning media. Cleaning fluids from both products reach every square inch of the tank wall with such force that they remove any residual material. This efficient cleaning action cuts energy requirements and cleaning time and the volume of cleaning media and water by up to 50 percent. This results in increased plant efficiencies, lower operating costs and significantly reduced waste.

          You wouldn't wash your glasses by just soaking them in the sink would you? You spray or scrub them as well.

          They rotary spray heads will pay for them selves over time in energy, time and chemical savings.
          Your CPE Systems Team!
          CPE Systems Inc.
          800-668-2268
          CPEsystems.com
          Thinkpumps.com
          sales@cpesystems.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Sorry the question was not directed towards you. But....

            ""Static spray balls only impact (and very lightly) very small areas of your tank and rely almost totally on the chemical cleaning capability of your CIP solution. ""

            I disagree with this statement. Both types rely on "chemical cleaning media". I could spray water at coagulated protein for days and it will not come off. I also believe that whichever sprayball is used I would have to use close to the same amount of cleaning solution to keep the same pump from cavitating.

            "You wouldn't wash your glasses by just soaking them in the sink would you? You spray or scrub them as well." Pretty poor analogy to what happens in a tank with a static sprayball. You don't actually think brewers fill a tank with cleaning solution do you?

            If you stuck with saving time and energy I would be right there with you. The jet action hitting every inch of the inside of the tank IS an advantage. If it could cut 10-15 min out of each CIP that would be a great saving. If the sprayball worked for longer than 12 months without needing to be replaced that would be great too. I can get a static for under $50. Do you have any rotators that are under 4 times that price? Thanks
            Joel Halbleib
            Partner / Zymurgist
            Hive and Barrel Meadery
            6302 Old La Grange Rd
            Crestwood, KY
            www.hiveandbarrel.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi

              I agree the glass washing example was not a good one. It is more like washing your deck by wetting it down with detergent and then using a garden hose to rinse it off. It works okay but not great. Now try it with a pressure washer with a detergent dispenser where every inch of the deck eventually and repeatedly gets a direct shot of high pressure water.

              Here are two Youtube videos. The first is a sales video of a static spray ball. You can see the while everything does gets wetted out only a few spots get direct mechanical cleaning action.

              http://www.spray.comDemonstration of stationary spray balls used to clean tanks up to 18' (5.5 m) in diameter. Ideal for rinsing and low pressure cleaning of...


              Alfa Laval Gamajet and Toftejorg rotary impingement tank cleaning devices utilize high impact cleaning jets to quickly and effectively clean the most challen...



              This one from Alfa Laval shows how a rotating device works by physically impacting each area of the tank with high pressure cleaner.

              There are lots of Youtube videos that show the difference.
              Your CPE Systems Team!
              CPE Systems Inc.
              800-668-2268
              CPEsystems.com
              Thinkpumps.com
              sales@cpesystems.com

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm surprised no one has asked the OP what type and size pump and lines hes using with the cheap sprayballs? Especially CPE systems?.. a rotating sprayball requires and powerful pump to work reliably from what Ive read..

                Comment


                • #9
                  I am currently using a C114 CPE 1.5tc inlet/out 1.5hp at 1800rpm at 60hz but the pump has a maximum output of 3600rpm at 120hz. I've done just about everything I can to shorten and simplify the CIP loop including having the ability to eliminate the grant tank from the equation. I understand the value off high quality rotating balls but unfortunately I'm a start up that is 2 months away from opening and extremely low on capital. It seems like all the good ones are $300-$500 a piece and I was hoping that there was something that would work better than the ones I currently have but at a more manageable price until I'm cash flow positive.


                  Thanks,
                  Sean

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi Sean,
                    When you say you have eliminated the grant tank from the loop it sounds like you may be trying to feed too many sprayballs at once. You should be able to isolate each vessel, also the closest drain should be used to feed the pump with the shortest hose that can reach going from the drain outlet of the tank to the pump face inlet. As another poster pointed out it is possible that your pump is not supplying enough power, are the current sprayballs locking up? A centrifugal 1.5 hp 3600 rpm is a good pump with plenty of power. Is your pump 3 phase?


                    Hi CPE, So Garden hose vs pressure washer. My best advise is to stick to highlighting your products specs and stop comparing them to anything. Both types operate off the same pump pressure right? I do believe a rotating ball is a better option, but the static balls work just fine, and the differences are minor, specifically in a small brewery. In any case if you are not using the correct chemicals to CIP you will fail. Cheers.

                    If money was not an issue I would go ahead and get this system https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYLxGqbprIw and use one sprayball for the entire brewery.
                    Joel Halbleib
                    Partner / Zymurgist
                    Hive and Barrel Meadery
                    6302 Old La Grange Rd
                    Crestwood, KY
                    www.hiveandbarrel.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Just a couple of thoughts

                      As seems to be common with questions here about pump sizes, people are asking what horsepower to use. Whilst not irrelevant, the most important thing is what that pump can produce in terms of flow rate at a given pressures - you can get high flow /low pressure pumps, or low flow / high pressure pumps, with a range in between the extremes of each. But first of all, the tank dimensions are required, so you size a suitable sprayhead, whether higher pressure such as a rotating jet or slot head, or a static ball. Then you can size the pump to suit.

                      Having said all that, the sizes of a 7 brl kettle aren't going to vary that much, so I am damned sure the one CPE suggested is fine - but it still needs to be matched to the pump output so it works effectively without atomisation or some pathetic dribble from the head.

                      Finally - need to consider what if any internal fittings / obstructions are present, and perhaps how well the tank drains. Lots of UK breweries at least use direct fire kettles with internal heating tubes which foul horribly and are exceedingly difficult to clean at the bottom and back - so manual cleaning is virtually essential, and for this size of kit, quite honestly it is as quick and easy to do with a green scrubby or similar.

                      Short term then - I would go for a high pressure cleaner, followed up by diving in and hand cleaning with a nylon brush or scrubby and mild detergent. As is often said - KISS.
                      dick

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Appreciate all the responses and helpful info. I'm going to attempt to clarify as I'm only having trouble running the CIP loop in one area. The area is the fixed CIP loop in line with my MLT and MLT pump. The loops runs through the 8 1" lautering drains that run to a 1.5" manifold to the outlet. This runs to the grant, which I can bypass, through the pump in about 7" of 1.5" process pipe with 4 90 degree turns. Then it exits the pump and runs through a 1.5" process hose for 10' and up the 1.5" CIP arm. At the end of the arm is a manifold with 4 rotating slotted spray balls with a 3/4" NPT. The spray balls are really inexpensive items from China that came with the MLT and I do not have the specs on the balls unfortunately. The tank itself is 1200mm or 47.24" in diameter. Click image for larger version

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                        • #13
                          So have you tried to swap the sprayball with one your using in another area where your not having a problem? or is it the same sprayball that just works everywhere else but not in your mlt? If thats the case I would have to assume the plumbing is suspect.

                          I know many homebrewers using cheaper sprayballs with no issues, I have a cheap rotating one that came with the system I ordered from china myself though I admit we are also a couple months from opening and I havent tried it yet.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by augiedoggy View Post
                            So have you tried to swap the sprayball with one your using in another area where your not having a problem? or is it the same sprayball that just works everywhere else but not in your mlt? If thats the case I would have to assume the plumbing is suspect.

                            I know many homebrewers using cheaper sprayballs with no issues, I have a cheap rotating one that came with the system I ordered from china myself though I admit we are also a couple months from opening and I havent tried it yet.
                            All my spray valves are virtually that same. The difference being thypiping in the brewhouse vs. the standard CIP loop of a FV and the fact that the MLT has 4 balls vs. 1 in the FV. The kettle with 4 balls is no the beat either. I know the piping is a factor but I have done all I can to change it and make it more condusive to better CIP action. I really just need balls that operate at a lower pressure and GPM. I just can’t offord $300-$500 per ball at the moment. The balls from China are poorly sealed and a lot of water comes out of the junction between the body and the ball prior to the ball. I suspect these won’t last long anyways due to the single unsealed bearing that they rotate on. Is there a way to measure my GPM and pressure prior to it entering the CIP arm? I’m thinking that I could hook up my flow meter between the process hose and the CIP arm for GPM. But I’m not sure about pressure.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Recapping for a second to see if I got the correct picture. Each of your SBs has a 3/4" inlet from the manifold? If so you are feeding 3" worth of SBs with 1.5" of pipe. The back pressure from the SBs will reduce the needed flow, but it is possible there was a miss calculation by an engineer. ALso is it possible to remove two of the SBs and plug their feed pipes and have just two running to see if that supplies enough flow to run the other two properly?
                              On on another note, 4 SBs is ridiculous for your sized vessel. I have two in my 30 bbl mash tun. Can you take a pic of your SB manifold and post it? Might help. Cheers.
                              Joel Halbleib
                              Partner / Zymurgist
                              Hive and Barrel Meadery
                              6302 Old La Grange Rd
                              Crestwood, KY
                              www.hiveandbarrel.com

                              Comment

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