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Thread: Using Lactobacillus Delbruekii or Lactobacillus Buchneri

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Vancouver, B.C. Canada
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    Using Lactobacillus Delbruekii or Lactobacillus Buchneri

    Whom has used either of these strains to sour their beer, much like a kettle sour?

    I found that using Lactobacillus brevis leaves a harshness in the beer. It eventually goes away and makes a pretty decent beer, but it does take a while, and I am trying to find a way to introduce a little more softness and complexity in the beer, without using lactobacillus/brettanomyces blends.

    Just want lactobacillus in this one, making it in the style of a kettle sour....but just a little "prettier" than a kettle sour.
    I am OK putting wort that has been heat pasteurized into into a FV; seal it and letting it sour there before transferring back to the kettle; boiling it; hopping it, etc, etc.
    I have read that these two strains are a little slower in lactic acid production, so I am hoping that can work to my advantage where I can inoculate the wort in the beginning of the week, have it sour in the FV, then finish the brew at the end of the week...something like that.

    Questions:
    1) Can anyone give me an idea of the flavour profile Delbrueikii or Buchneri provides?
    2) What would you consider a desired pH of Delbruiekii, or Buckneri. Is it the same as Brevis, or is it a bit higher?
    3) How long does it take to drop to the desired pH?
    4) Will there be pressure issues in the FV during the lactic acid production of the wort?
    Basically asking if I need to run a bastardized air lock (hose from my CIP line to a bucket o' sanitizer); having it vent...or can I seal the FV. and other than measuring pH, forget about it for a week?
    Timeline from start to finish to make this beer is about a month. Is this a realistic method?

    Your past thoughts and experiences are appreciated.
    Thanks

    David
    33 Acres

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    milwaukee
    Posts
    106
    I've only worked with brevis and delbruekii
    I've enjoyed delbruekii and even done anaerobic propagations to make pitches for 50bbl batches.

    The one thing I've learned is titratable acidity is FAR more important than pH.
    pH doesn't have a strong correlation to perception of sour as much as people would like to believe. Of course terminal pH is important but how much sour you want is more important.

    As far as taste goes any time I've used either of the two above mention I've got pretty soft sourness using them in isolation. Definitely more Berliner weiss type acidity regardless of kettle souring or post fermentation or co-fermentation.
    I hope I encouraged you!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Beaver Island, MI USA
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    34
    I recently heard a MBAA podcast (episode #85) featuring a set of trials of various strains, conducted by Bells and presented by Tim Lozen. Their results with a highly qualified/experienced tasting panel were buchneri as the favorite, followed by casei in second and plantarum in third. The first two were noted for high acidity/sourness and a clean lactic flavor, while plantarum was described as being fruity as well as being highly acidic/sour and having a clean lactic flavor. There is a lot more in the podcast, but I thought this might be of some use.

    Slainte!


    Patrick S. McGinnity
    Whiskey Point Brewing Company
    Beaver Island, MI

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
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    370
    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Puck View Post
    I recently heard a MBAA podcast (episode #85) featuring a set of trials of various strains, conducted by Bells and presented by Tim Lozen. Their results with a highly qualified/experienced tasting panel were buchneri as the favorite, followed by casei in second and plantarum in third. The first two were noted for high acidity/sourness and a clean lactic flavor, while plantarum was described as being fruity as well as being highly acidic/sour and having a clean lactic flavor. There is a lot more in the podcast, but I thought this might be of some use.
    Nice information.

    Anecdotal evidence from those I have talked to over the years lead me to the plantarum strain as offering the most complexity for a kettle soured brew. I opted to try the Lallemand WildBrew for these reasons and was quite happy with the product. In fact I have just ordered another pitch of it this week. It soured plenty within 48 hours and I had no complaints at all. I doubt I will use anything else personally.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Vancouver, B.C. Canada
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    41
    Thank you;
    Appreciate the responses; the MBAA podcast sounds worth checking out.
    The Lallemande product also sounds pretty good too, as it seems Platarum may work pretty nicely for hopped kettle sours.

    In regards to Delbruekii, one of my questions is to see if this strain can sour in a fermenter over the course of a week, instead of tying up the Kettle over a couple of days.
    Here is an example of what I would try to do:
    Make wort on Monday, inoculate in the fermenter, and purge with CO2 like crazy.
    Seal up the Fermenter or use an air lock (hose in sanitizer) as the bacteria is probably heteroaermentive and I assume will generate some CO2 pressure. Just not sure how rapid CO2 production will be in relation to the level of souring.
    Over the course of a week, measure pH and titratable acidity. Hoping the lactic acid production with Delbruekii is slower, so by Friday or Saturday that same week, we can transfer the sour'd wort back to the kettle; boil it; hop it, pitch yeast and send it to a fermenter for fermentation.

    Value your opinions guys, but I also plan to make other beers during the week to deal with production, so I am looking at a possible method to schedule production where I can brew our stock beers in between making sours, without having someone to monitor pH over the weekend and have to finish the process at some odd day or hour, when we reach a desired acidity in the wort.

    Thanks again.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    117
    Hi Dvarga-

    I used the technique you propose for a batch soured with a homemade LAB starter as described in the "American Sour" book. I used a fermentation lock and the ferment was heterofermentive. I reached my target TA overnight. (Exceeded it in fact. I don't have my notes here, but it was slightly below what Tonsmeire recommended for subsequent yeast fermentation.) I pushed the batch back into the kettle with CO2. The boil was unusually foamy and smell alcoholic like mulled wine. Finished it off with S-05 and the beer was presentable.

    Our second batch was kettle soured (in kettle not fermentor) with Wild Pitch L. Plantarum. I let it run 72 hrs. and it never reached the TA of the previous batch (again no notes here). The finished beer is plenty sour tasting despite the higher TA; cleaner and smoother perhaps than the previous batch. No foaming or alcohol aroma during the boil.

    I saved some of the L. Plantarum to use in a gose, yet to be brewed. Next I'll try to get my hands on some L. Buchneri. We'll see how the gose turns out, but it's not giving quite the clean, balance lactic sourness I'd like.
    Clarke Pelz
    Cynosure Brewing

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