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Thread: Cleaning between batches

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    very cold place
    Posts
    5

    Cleaning between batches

    Hello everyone!

    We started a 5bbl brewery and is now facing switch to 2 simultaneous brews a day. We have a Braumeister-type single vessel rig (electric-powered), and a single brew with cleaning takes about 6 hours. We have everything mounted on a single frame, so I can wash pot, lines, main hose and plate chiller at the same time. We also have an in-line strainer, so plate chiller is free of any trub, hops etc.

    Currently my cleaning routine is like this: fast hot water rinse, hot caustic rinse (15 min), followed by an hot nitro acid rinse (15 min), followed by a sanitizer (15% peracetic+peroxide) rinse (15 min). If I'm brewing next day, then sanitizer rinse moves to the start of that day. We never had an issue with sanitation (50+ batches streak) so far.

    And so I wonder, what should the routine of cleaning between the simultaneous batches be? Can it be reduced to caustic+sanitizer only (acid in sanitizer neutralizing the caustic)? Can it be reduced to water rinse (we have a powerful 2500PSI Karcher professional pressure washer) + sanitizer rinse? I'm trying to reduce time for 2 batches and will be grateful for any advice!

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by Stiletto; 08-11-2018 at 03:40 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    24
    A few thoughts based on your post. First, start with an ambient rinse, not hot. Hot water bakes protein deposits to the vessel and actually makes cleaning more difficult. The pre-rinse is complete when the water drains clear.

    A 15 minutes caustic cycle seems very short. It takes a certain time for chemical process to take place and 15 minutes is definitely pushing the limits. Extend the caustic to at least 30 minutes, add some oxidizer (Peroxide based or similar) to speed up the cleaning process. Then rinse until free of alkalinity. Use a step down rinse or ambient water dependent on your vessel size and air exchange. Avoid pulling a vacuum on your tanks. The Avis cycle is only needed to remove inorganic deposits such as hard water scale or beerstone. You may be able to only run the acid periodically. Then run a sanitize cycle for 10 - 15 minutes or leave the equipment clean and run the sanitizer prior to use if you don’t brew or use the tanks for an extended. Period of time (12+hours).

    Cleaning takes time and this way at least you can optimize the time to the important steps and save time on pre-rinse and Acid cycles.

    Call or e-mail me for more details.

    Cheers,

    Dirk Loeffler
    Technical Director
    Loeffler Chemical Corp.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Loeffler Chemical Corporation
    (404) 629-0999
    800-769-5020 (US & Canada only)
    www.loefflerchemical.com

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Lakewood, CO
    Posts
    34
    Not sure if I'm understanding the exact design of your brewhouse, but if you're doing consecutive batches, you don't need to do more than hot water rinse your mash kettle between batches. When we did consecutive batches on our 5bbl to fill a 10bbl fermentor, we didn't even rinse our HX. We had valves to isolate it, so nothing could contaminate the lines between batches. The second batch wort would just rinse out the previous batch's wort, no sanitizer needed. If we were doing two different beers on the same day, we had a tee fitting and sight glass at the bottom of the fermentor to divert the first batch's wort to the drain until we saw the new wort push it out, then redirected it into the fermentor. But I agree with Dirk's comment about how to best clean everything once you brew both consecutive batches.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    very cold place
    Posts
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by spetrovits View Post
    Not sure if I'm understanding the exact design of your brewhouse, but if you're doing consecutive batches, you don't need to do more than hot water rinse your mash kettle between batches. When we did consecutive batches on our 5bbl to fill a 10bbl fermentor, we didn't even rinse our HX. We had valves to isolate it, so nothing could contaminate the lines between batches. The second batch wort would just rinse out the previous batch's wort, no sanitizer needed. If we were doing two different beers on the same day, we had a tee fitting and sight glass at the bottom of the fermentor to divert the first batch's wort to the drain until we saw the new wort push it out, then redirected it into the fermentor. But I agree with Dirk's comment about how to best clean everything once you brew both consecutive batches.
    My system looks something like this:
    Attachment 63910
    but full-plumbed with stainless tubes with heat exchanger mounted on skid. I also have a lid with spray ball installed, and I have a separate HLT, located in basement. So, it's only 1 kettle to clean, with the spray ball it's quite easy.

    I'm asking exactly about 5bbl batches to fill 10bbl fermentor, it will be the same beer a day, always.

    So, it's OK to just rinse kettle and tubes with water until clean and start the 2nd batch right on, with full CIP cycle after the 2nd batch?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirk Loeffler View Post
    A few thoughts based on your post. First, start with an ambient rinse, not hot. Hot water bakes protein deposits to the vessel and actually makes cleaning more difficult. The pre-rinse is complete when the water drains clear.

    A 15 minutes caustic cycle seems very short. It takes a certain time for chemical process to take place and 15 minutes is definitely pushing the limits. Extend the caustic to at least 30 minutes, add some oxidizer (Peroxide based or similar) to speed up the cleaning process. Then rinse until free of alkalinity. Use a step down rinse or ambient water dependent on your vessel size and air exchange. Avoid pulling a vacuum on your tanks. The Avis cycle is only needed to remove inorganic deposits such as hard water scale or beerstone. You may be able to only run the acid periodically. Then run a sanitize cycle for 10 - 15 minutes or leave the equipment clean and run the sanitizer prior to use if you don’t brew or use the tanks for an extended. Period of time (12+hours).

    Cleaning takes time and this way at least you can optimize the time to the important steps and save time on pre-rinse and Acid cycles.
    It's not simply caustic, it's more than some advanced "alkaline cleaner" with some oxidizer in it (I'm on vacation and can't really tell what's inside). I tried 30 min cycle, and it is doing great, but so far 15 min alkaline and rinsing with pressure washer (1-2 min) provides clean heating elements and clean walls inside the kettle (not so sure for pipes and HX - but no sanitation (lab-tested) problems so far, so I can suppose it's fine as well).

    I thought of using nitro acid rinse for 3 purposes: 1) deactivating alkaline cleaner, if it is still hidden somewhere, 2) removing scraps of beerstone etc., 3) repassivating the stainless, because it's not the best quality, as we have found out :-(
    So I would be glad to skip it, but I don't think I can :\
    Last edited by Stiletto; 08-12-2018 at 03:06 PM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    24
    Consecutive batches can be just rinsed as long as it is just the brewing equipment. The heat exchanger is tricky since it is the primary source of micro contamination in a brewery. The difference of heat and cold creates a small area with the optimal environment for microorganisms to grow.

    I would also just rinse cold rather than hot since everything is exposed to boiling temperatures anyway and hot water just bakes protein to the equipment walls.

    Large breweries go all week without cleaning although they generally CIP the calandria every seven to twelve brews to maintain heat transfer efficiency and prevent plugged tubes.

    Cheers

    Dirk Loeffler


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Loeffler Chemical Corporation
    (404) 629-0999
    800-769-5020 (US & Canada only)
    www.loefflerchemical.com

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Livermore, CA
    Posts
    607
    Larger breweries will not clean the kettle with anything more than a water rinse for all of their batches in a week. They are crazy dirty at that point, but it proves the point. No need to do a full caustic wash if you're just going to get it dirty again 10 minutes later. Unless there is something used that you definitely do not want going into the next batch. As for the HX, if you are doing the same beer twice, I just cap it at both ends and wait to the next batch to finish before flushing. Different batches to different tanks, I will back flush and re-sanitize before the next batch if it is something that will not blend well. Like a stout into a pils.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    AUS
    Posts
    141
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirk Loeffler View Post
    A few thoughts based on your post. First, start with an ambient rinse, not hot. Hot water bakes protein deposits to the vessel and actually makes cleaning more difficult. The pre-rinse is complete when the water drains clear.

    A 15 minutes caustic cycle seems very short. It takes a certain time for chemical process to take place and 15 minutes is definitely pushing the limits. Extend the caustic to at least 30 minutes, add some oxidizer (Peroxide based or similar) to speed up the cleaning process. Then rinse until free of alkalinity. Use a step down rinse or ambient water dependent on your vessel size and air exchange. Avoid pulling a vacuum on your tanks. The Avis cycle is only needed to remove inorganic deposits such as hard water scale or beerstone. You may be able to only run the acid periodically. Then run a sanitize cycle for 10 - 15 minutes or leave the equipment clean and run the sanitizer prior to use if you don’t brew or use the tanks for an extended. Period of time (12+hours).

    Cleaning takes time and this way at least you can optimize the time to the important steps and save time on pre-rinse and Acid cycles.

    Call or e-mail me for more details.

    Cheers,

    Dirk Loeffler
    Technical Director
    Loeffler Chemical Corp.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Hi Dirk,

    Why when using caustic and hydrogen peroxide as the oxidizer turn stainless black? Ive used 3% caustic and 1% hydrogen. Can you get rid of it?

    Cheers

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    24
    Yes, a strong passivation should reverse the stain. This is unusual and I have only seen this phenomenon when cleaning solution drips on hot piping.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Loeffler Chemical Corporation
    (404) 629-0999
    800-769-5020 (US & Canada only)
    www.loefflerchemical.com

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