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Thread: Pipes and hoses diameters

  1. #1
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    Pipes and hoses diameters

    I am purchasing new 10 hL brewhouse (~8.5 bbl) and I have doubt about diameters of SS pipes and EPDM hoses.

    Brewhouse will have MLT and BK/WP which are hard piped with SS pipes. For HEX->FV and FV->BBT transfer I will use EPDM hose.
    Pumps (fixed and mobile) inlet is 51mm, outlet is 38mm.
    Manufacturer suggest SS pipes that are 51 mm diameter on pump suction side and 38 mm on pump outlet, with 32 mm EPDM hose (all inner diameters).

    For non metric users: 51 mm- 2", 38 mm- 1.5", 25 mm- 1"

    My concern is that these diameters are huge for this size of brewhouse, and I am closer to 32 mm for inlet and 25 mm diameter for pump outlet (both for SS pipes and EPDM hoses).


    Logic behind is this:

    - If we aim for 1.5 m/sec flow speed at production side, and want to cool 1100 L (9.5 bbl) of wort in 30 min, required flow would be 2200 L/h (19 bbl/h). With this speed and flow we need ~23 mm inner diameter (aprox 25mm).

    - At cleaning pipes (CIP), if we want 2 m/sec flow speed, with 2600 L/h (~22 bbl/h) flow we need ~22mm diameter.

    Calculations are based on this calculator: http://www.1728.org/flowrate.htm


    Brewery in neighborhood also have different diameters and brewmaster complained to me about complicity since there are a lot of different connections.. but I don't see issue here.

    What do you think, is my math correct or using different diameters is over-complicating and will create confusion in practice?
    Any other suggestions for anything I probably overlooked are also welcome.

  2. #2
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    I haven't checked the maths in detail, (I use my own spreadsheet - but will check out this calculator for interest)but you are right, as is all too common, manufacturers specify pipework and hoses that are far too big to be able to clean. You are right about needing 2 metres / second for small diameter pipework - larger, from 80 mm upwards can cope with 1.5 m/ sec if hot cleaning, but 2 metres / sec cold cleaning. You definitely need 2 metres / second for cleaning 25 mm, and you really want to be able to transfer wort and product at not less than 1.5 metres / second, ideally for small bore pipe like this, 2 metres / second

    Make sure your pumps are capable of this flow as well. Some of the pumps sold in the UK are barely powerful enough to clean one inch pipe (22.6 mm ID) let alone 25 mm DIN (oddly, 26 mm ID) or 40 or 50 mm pipe. Make sure as well that your wort transfer pump can clean the chiller at 1.3 to 1.5 times the nominal forward design flow rate - in your case not less than 3000 litres / hour

    Cheers
    dick

  3. #3
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    i cooled and knocked out 7.5 bbl wort in 30 minutes. all the pipe and hoses are 1.5" id.

  4. #4
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    @dick murton
    Thank you for response, I hoped you'll chime in.
    I think I'll sick with 32/25mm (1.5"/1") pipes.

    @brewmaster 2011
    Are you satisfied with cleaning result, what CIP pump do you use?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by dark_s View Post
    @dick murton
    Thank you for response, I hoped you'll chime in.
    I think I'll sick with 32/25mm (1.5"/1") pipes.

    @brewmaster 2011
    Are you satisfied with cleaning result, what CIP pump do you use?
    my knowout pumps are 2HP and my cip pump is 1.5HP and they both do great when it comes to cleaning.

  6. #6
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    Why do people talk about motor power, which is useless in terms of calculating flow rates?

    7.5 brl in 30 minutes = 0.45 - 0.5 metres / second - woefully inadequate flow rate for cleaning. I have pictures (as invariably do most people who deal seriously with cleaning) of when we cut out wort transfer pipework cleaned at 1 metre / second, and there was huge build up of wort debris, resulting in re-infection of wort on every transfer.

    1.5 inch is vastly oversized for the volume and flow rate.
    dick

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by dick murton View Post
    Why do people talk about motor power, which is useless in terms of calculating flow rates?

    7.5 brl in 30 minutes = 0.45 - 0.5 metres / second - woefully inadequate flow rate for cleaning. I have pictures (as invariably do most people who deal seriously with cleaning) of when we cut out wort transfer pipework cleaned at 1 metre / second, and there was huge build up of wort debris, resulting in re-infection of wort on every transfer.

    1.5 inch is vastly oversized for the volume and flow rate.
    that isn't the full power of the motor. I use a VDF to slow down the motor to 15hz to get my wort to the temp i want coming out of the hx.

  8. #8
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    My point is that you could use an electric motor powerful enough to haul a heavy goods rain across the Rockies to drive the pump head, so motor power is virtually irrelevant. What is important is the casing and impeller size and design. You get a pump head design / size that gives you the pressures and flow rates you want, and then fit the smallest electric motor it needs to be able to achieve this. Anything bigger will simply be a waste of capital and or energy

    The key point of all this is that you should be moving all wort / beer etc at just turbulent flow rates - generally considered 1.5 metres (circa 5ft) / sec, but up to 2 metres / second is fine, and cleaning at =>2 metres (approx. 7ft) / second - so according to that design practice the pipe ID should be circa 21 mm - so 1" ID would be best commercial fit, and clean at not less than 2500 litres (circa 21 brl) hr.
    dick

  9. #9
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    If pump outlet diameter is 25mm, then CIP tube for all tanks should also be 25mm?
    Otherwise, it doesn't make sense for me.. or I'm missing something here.

    Sent from my GM 5 d using Tapatalk

  10. #10
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    Perhaps strange as it might seem, pump outlet diameter seems to bear no relationship to the output. For example, and forgive me for using large brewery stuff, but that is what I am really used to, but the supplied outlet connection of a pump suitable for transferring fluid at 400 to 600 hl / hr, which needs 4 inch pipework (100 mm) might only be 2 inch. The key is the shape of the impeller, the size of the impeller which determines what the flow rate and pressures it can achieve are. Then the motor size is determined from that. Normally the pump suppliers link appropriate motor size to the pump output, so the likes of myself can spec the flow and pressure requirements and then the motor size is determined by the pump manufacturer/supplier. You can easily fit a small output pump to a monster motor, and either trim the pump speed using a VSD, or trim the impeller - the use of the VSD being far more efficient. If you have to trim the impeller AND use a VSD at very low frequency, the pump is grossly incompatible with the required duty.

    So, back to the question / comment - in the case of 1" pipe outlet, a 1" outlet is probably fine, but you may even end up with something slightly smaller, though I doubt very much if you will get one specified. Because a 2" outlet is likely to be associated with a much higher output, if it comes with a 2" outlet, my experience suggests a gros mismatch between deliverable output and what is actually required.

    Look at the pumps curves - what you need is the required flow and delivery pressure. In a small brewery, the maximum backpressures are typically due to plate heat exchangers or vertical lift to the CIP delivery head in a tank, allowing also for tank internal pressure is cleaning under pressure.
    dick

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