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Thread: Help! Hot Water Pressure Pump for Atmospheric HLT?

  1. #1
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    Help! Hot Water Pressure Pump for Atmospheric HLT?

    Hey All,

    I'm designing a new water system for my brewery expansion. Going to have two large atmospheric storage tanks (500 gallons each), one for cold water and one for hot. I assumed I would need to plumb in pressure tanks for both sides of the system with pressure switches to engage pumps, but now I'm looking at pressure pumps (particularly the ones made by grundfos) that deliver water on demand.

    This seems like an easy solution to the cold side, but I am struggling to find anything that is rated for hot side. My HLT will be plumbed into a solar system, so I will need to be able to pump water up to 150 deg F. It needs to be an atmospheric tank in order to recollect my knock-out water. Anybody recommend any particular equipment/solutions? Thanks.

    Dan Badger
    Ausable Brewing Co.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Moab, Utah
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    527

    Setup

    Quote Originally Posted by dbadger View Post
    Hey All,

    I'm designing a new water system for my brewery expansion. Going to have two large atmospheric storage tanks (500 gallons each), one for cold water and one for hot. I assumed I would need to plumb in pressure tanks for both sides of the system with pressure switches to engage pumps, but now I'm looking at pressure pumps (particularly the ones made by grundfos) that deliver water on demand.

    This seems like an easy solution to the cold side, but I am struggling to find anything that is rated for hot side. My HLT will be plumbed into a solar system, so I will need to be able to pump water up to 150 deg F. It needs to be an atmospheric tank in order to recollect my knock-out water. Anybody recommend any particular equipment/solutions? Thanks.

    Dan Badger
    Ausable Brewing Co.
    You do not need any " pressure tanks " on this type of system. The setup depends on exactly what you want to achieve. The pumps you need are Goulds NPE series. If you are going to use HLT water for washdown you are going to plumb the HLT pump inlet off the bottom of your HLT and then branch out to the Plant with a Bypass valve, [Manual or Automatic] coming OFF the Pump Discharge pipe that ports back to the top of the HLT. This will allow you to leave your HLT pump running during the shift.
    You can setup a manual or automatic fill system for the HLT and a motor starter for the pump that you toggle on at the start of shift and off when the plant is not in use.There are a lot of different ways this can be done, but you are essentially making and distributing your own hot water in thie arrangement. The Goulds pumps are rock solid for this application, run long, and are easy to repair. CLT is generally a batch process and is generally brought down to temp with a recirc arrangement. This can also be done quite simply with the correct Heat Exchanger. A warmer setpoint on glycol is advised unless your really know what you are doing with HVAC and controls, otherwise you can be freezing your HX on a regular basis which destroys them. It is possible to run Glycol colder than 30 for this but your controls have to be setup with several levels of failsafe to be sure the HX never runs below 32 on the water side. a separate chiller for the Brewhouse is very helpful and will also stop your glycol loop from swinging wide on knockout. Chiller redundancy is an often missed, good idea that few tend to implement.
    There are many ways these type of systems can be done, and they can be done simply and cheaply with rugged simple control schemes. A good idea would be to go out and see different types of systems in the field at operating breweries.
    Warren Turner
    Industrial Engineering Technician
    HVACR-Electrical Systems Specialist
    Moab Brewery
    " No Cell Phone Zone."

  3. #3
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    May 2012
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    The pressure tanks are on the output side of the pump, branched inline from the mainline out to the various points of service. The suction side of the pump does not need to see a pressure tank, though you will need a check valve to keep water from backflowing from the outlet side. Same deal as a pump system for a house on a well, the tank is generally atmospheric, the pump has a pressure vessel on the outlet that has a bladder and air chamber in it. Something like this will work with the proper plumbing.: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Water-Wo...T20B/202846482

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Moab, Utah
    Posts
    527
    Quote Originally Posted by jebzter View Post
    The pressure tanks are on the output side of the pump, branched inline from the mainline out to the various points of service. The suction side of the pump does not need to see a pressure tank, though you will need a check valve to keep water from backflowing from the outlet side. Same deal as a pump system for a house on a well, the tank is generally atmospheric, the pump has a pressure vessel on the outlet that has a bladder and air chamber in it. Something like this will work with the proper plumbing.: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Water-Wo...T20B/202846482

    Like I said before. A hydropneumatic tank is " not " necessary, but may offer some advantage of building a more elegant and or costly system.Not required, as in NON-ESSENTIAL.
    Warren Turner
    Industrial Engineering Technician
    HVACR-Electrical Systems Specialist
    Moab Brewery
    " No Cell Phone Zone."

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Enterprise, Oregon
    Posts
    1,879
    Good luck finding a high-temperature bladder-in-can pressure tank.

    I don't know what you're using 150F water for. Most use 180+ water.
    Timm Turrentine

    Brewerywright,
    Terminal Gravity Brewing,
    Enterprise. Oregon.

  6. #6
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    May 2012
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    Livermore, CA
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    633
    That tank was an example of what is used in practice, not what would be exactly perfect for his situation, it would be essential to find a properly spec'd tank for use with brewery levels of hot water. I would recommend a tank over running a pump for hours at a time. It will save on electricity alone.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Keeseville, NY, USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starcat View Post
    You do not need any " pressure tanks " on this type of system. The setup depends on exactly what you want to achieve. The pumps you need are Goulds NPE series. If you are going to use HLT water for washdown you are going to plumb the HLT pump inlet off the bottom of your HLT and then branch out to the Plant with a Bypass valve, [Manual or Automatic] coming OFF the Pump Discharge pipe that ports back to the top of the HLT. This will allow you to leave your HLT pump running during the shift.
    You can setup a manual or automatic fill system for the HLT and a motor starter for the pump that you toggle on at the start of shift and off when the plant is not in use.There are a lot of different ways this can be done, but you are essentially making and distributing your own hot water in thie arrangement. The Goulds pumps are rock solid for this application, run long, and are easy to repair. CLT is generally a batch process and is generally brought down to temp with a recirc arrangement. This can also be done quite simply with the correct Heat Exchanger. A warmer setpoint on glycol is advised unless your really know what you are doing with HVAC and controls, otherwise you can be freezing your HX on a regular basis which destroys them. It is possible to run Glycol colder than 30 for this but your controls have to be setup with several levels of failsafe to be sure the HX never runs below 32 on the water side. a separate chiller for the Brewhouse is very helpful and will also stop your glycol loop from swinging wide on knockout. Chiller redundancy is an often missed, good idea that few tend to implement.
    There are many ways these type of systems can be done, and they can be done simply and cheaply with rugged simple control schemes. A good idea would be to go out and see different types of systems in the field at operating breweries.
    Thanks for the specifics. I've worked at several breweries, so I have seen quite a few systems, but none that quite deal with what I'm trying to do. I haven't used these pumps before, so I will keep them in mind. That's an interesting idea of looping the water until I need to send it, but it won't really work for supplying the rest of the sinks, bathrooms, etc. on demand. We're a small brewery and bar, so I'm tying to design something that's as simple and multi-purpose as possible, while utilizing our solar system as efficiently as possible.

  8. #8
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    Jan 2013
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    Keeseville, NY, USA
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    5
    Quote Originally Posted by jebzter View Post
    The pressure tanks are on the output side of the pump, branched inline from the mainline out to the various points of service. The suction side of the pump does not need to see a pressure tank, though you will need a check valve to keep water from backflowing from the outlet side. Same deal as a pump system for a house on a well, the tank is generally atmospheric, the pump has a pressure vessel on the outlet that has a bladder and air chamber in it. Something like this will work with the proper plumbing.: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Water-Wo...T20B/202846482
    Thanks. I do understand the basics of plumbing. It's a matter of sourcing equipment for the hot side, and possibly being able to avoid bladder tanks, that I'm posting for.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGTimm View Post
    Good luck finding a high-temperature bladder-in-can pressure tank.

    I don't know what you're using 150F water for. Most use 180+ water.
    I'm planning on setting my HLT that's hooked up to my solar system to about 150, for reasons specific to the solar system, but will bump it to exactly what I need with an on demand system downstream.

  10. #10
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    Keeseville, NY, USA
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    So after many more hours of research, and talking to some technicians, I'm leaning towards a couple of different pressure pumps (both 1 HP) that will run on demand (though I did find some bladder tanks rated for high temp). The Grandfos CMBE series is an industrial pump rated to 140F (close enough to 150F I figure), and is on a vfd so I can control the pressure that the system is under. This seems like kind of the gold standard, but runs around $1800. For quite a bit cheaper ($720) I've been looking at the Davey pumps (rated to 150F), which seem really well made but don't have a vfd, and therefore maintain a certain pressure. I'm looking at the Davey BT20-30 which maintains 50 psi at up to 20 gpm. Anyone have any experience with either of these?
    Last edited by dbadger; 01-23-2019 at 04:44 PM.

  11. #11
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    Jan 2003
    Location
    Palau
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    Grundfos is excellent equipment.

    I've used the CMBE pumps on glycol systems to maintain pressure with minimum energy input. They are the gold standard, but you get what you pay for. Still don't know why you're targeting 150F when most HLT systems are upward of 170F. If you do not need hot water all the time, then you might get by with what others do: just use a cheap Top-Line pump and run it when you need it.
    Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

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