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Thread: Hazy in a hazy

  1. #1
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    Hazy in a hazy

    Iíve brewed two batches of a ďhazy ipaĒ and have received good reviews. My problem is I canít get a good long lasting hazy, Iím looking for the NEIPA look, muddy, cloudy, murky beer. Iíve tried the tricks that I can think of, special yeast, flaked grains, mash temp, biohop. What am I missing? I use both flaked oats and wheat at 15% and my dry hop is ~3#-1bbl (if I remember correctly) TIA


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  2. #2
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    What yeast strain? And when you say biohop? How do you interpret that?
    Last edited by Junkyard; 04-07-2019 at 08:51 AM.

  3. #3
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    ok, so this is totally just my opinion, but....
    Why is everyone focusing on the hazy aspect of this style? Oats, wheat and other protein rich grains are added to create that rich mouthfeel that we all love about this style. Yes, they also attribute some haze, but is that the goal? Even the new GABF guidelines say: juicy OR hazy ipa. Late boil hop additions and active fermentation dry hop additions create amazing juicy, tropical and deep flavors, and yes, that also creates some haze. A bit of yeast left in suspension adds a whole myriad of flavors, and yes, also creates some haze.
    But is haze all that should define this style? every brewer is different and free to brew whatever they like for what ever reasons, and I don't mean to come off as condescending, or "holier than thou" with this. I have countless examples of this style, and besides the gritty, yeasty texture left on the roof of my mouth by the chunkier examples, which I do appreciate at times, it would be hard to say with my eyes closed the difference, better or worse, between a muddy, thick as orange juice, version than one that is more clear. So what is the justification of haze for haze sake? seriously, I'm not mocking, I actually would like to hear others thoughts on this.

    once again, this is just the opinion of a simple country bumpkin brewer eagerly awaiting someone to rip my logic a new one.

  4. #4
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    Yeast strain is Omega tropical ipa, biohop is dry hop during active fermentation. The reason I am concerned with the haze is bc I feel the flavor, texture and aroma on my beer are right where I want them but the visual aspect is not. Itís not important to me to achieve that look. I am just always trying to improve so this is an opportunity for me


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  5. #5
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    That yeast clears it up after a week or so, switch to a different hazy yeast and you'll get the haze.

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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Pivo View Post
    ok, so this is totally just my opinion, but....
    Why is everyone focusing on the hazy aspect of this style? Oats, wheat and other protein rich grains are added to create that rich mouthfeel that we all love about this style. Yes, they also attribute some haze, but is that the goal? Even the new GABF guidelines say: juicy OR hazy ipa. Late boil hop additions and active fermentation dry hop additions create amazing juicy, tropical and deep flavors, and yes, that also creates some haze. A bit of yeast left in suspension adds a whole myriad of flavors, and yes, also creates some haze.
    But is haze all that should define this style? every brewer is different and free to brew whatever they like for what ever reasons, and I don't mean to come off as condescending, or "holier than thou" with this. I have countless examples of this style, and besides the gritty, yeasty texture left on the roof of my mouth by the chunkier examples, which I do appreciate at times, it would be hard to say with my eyes closed the difference, better or worse, between a muddy, thick as orange juice, version than one that is more clear. So what is the justification of haze for haze sake? seriously, I'm not mocking, I actually would like to hear others thoughts on this.

    once again, this is just the opinion of a simple country bumpkin brewer eagerly awaiting someone to rip my logic a new one.
    The GABF or BA guidelines didn't invent the style so they should not be taken as a reference.
    The haze is important: for instance, refer to hopsteiners research on hazy IPA.
    You can certainly make good beer without haze but the haze is the reason for all the extra hop aroma/flavor you get in the style.
    Also it's not always yeast in suspension that causes the haze.
    Last edited by Junkyard; 04-08-2019 at 05:19 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by danefrank View Post
    Yeast strain is Omega tropical ipa, biohop is dry hop during active fermentation. The reason I am concerned with the haze is bc I feel the flavor, texture and aroma on my beer are right where I want them but the visual aspect is not. Itís not important to me to achieve that look. I am just always trying to improve so this is an opportunity for me


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    Switch to omega British V.

  8. #8
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    We have moved away from using as much flaked adjunct and are using more wheat and oat malt, almost like brewing an American wheat. Also are going to be using the London Dry III with a low flok rate. These things seem to increase the haze and keep it in suspension much longer.

    Justin

  9. #9
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    What about your water and salts adjusment? For us that is also very important, besides all the other things mentioned.
    Cheers
    Jose Argudo
    Head Brewer
    3Monos Craft Beer
    Malaga, Spain
    www.3monoscaftbeer.com

  10. #10
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    I'll second water chem. I struggled with keeping haze but after changing my water chemistry the haze stays. Specifically low kettle pH (4.4) and crazy chloride levels (400ppm).

  11. #11
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    So I pitched a blend of Tropical ipa, double ipa & British V. Iím upping the biohop, and I looked into the water chem (not really enough info regarding the style to say what profile works). I know I should have only changed one thing at a time to see what works but oh well


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  12. #12
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    Portland, OR
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    Haze is a tricky thing

    So when I was actively brewing these styles the combination of water chemistry and adjuncts created a more stable haze than counting on a non flocculent yeast. Counting on the yeast for haze will truly disappoint as the beer sits a perfectly good hazy would gain clarity. This led to people shipping kegs upside down to force accounts to flip them when received (just a bandaid that doesn't solve the problem). Trying a combination of Calcium Chloride and Gypsum at a 2 to 1 worked well for the Portland Oregon water. Adjuncts at high levels in the 15 to 20% range mostly wheat with some oats or flaked barley help. These adjuncts should be the last grains going into the mash making up the top level of the mash. I would add the oats and flaked barley last and just fold gently into the top of the mash bed. Metering rice hulls throughout the mash helps to avoid stuck beds. Also avoid over agitation of the grain and any heavy shearing forces during hot side process and transfer to not break up the proteins that can assist your haze.

    Counter Intuitive Filtration

    Amazingly enough a stable haze can be better represented when the green hop matter can be filtered out to show beautiful hues. When it is able to be removed, I found more citrus notes popped as well. In a large brewery this can be accomplished with a fast centrifuge program to only strip the largest of particles. Lower tech is to straight transfer beer from the racking arm straight up unfiltered and combine with a portion of filtered beer from the lower third of the tank below to avoid the hop matter. Without filtration as an option proper crash time will help with settling hops but will require a sight glass to verify your transfer/packaging using the racking arm. These techniques will only be possible with the creation of a strong haze from a proper earlier mashing procedure.

    My two cents

    Don Marcil
    Brewery Design Consultant
    Stout Tanks and Kettles LLC

  13. #13
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    The Haze is not yeast dependent but more a combination of polyphenols+protein and water salts, think of it as the difference between sea water and river water, the salts will create the haziness suported by hop oils combined with proteins. Obviously messing with the salts will have flavour impacts so keep your sodium low while your CaCl can go really high. Chalky or minerally flavours should be avoided. I wouldnt mess too much with my kettle pH.
    Hope it helps
    Jose Argudo
    Head Brewer
    3Monos Craft Beer
    Malaga, Spain
    www.3monoscaftbeer.com

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jose A. View Post
    The Haze is not yeast dependent but more a combination of polyphenols+protein and water salts, think of it as the difference between sea water and river water, the salts will create the haziness suported by hop oils combined with proteins. Obviously messing with the salts will have flavour impacts so keep your sodium low while your CaCl can go really high. Chalky or minerally flavours should be avoided. I wouldnt mess too much with my kettle pH.
    Hope it helps
    New England haze is a hop and yeast interaction. It is yeast strain dependent, and it also varies with certain hop varieties. I feel very confident saying that.

    Jose, I just looked up your brewery and saw a bunch of "new england IPA's" being checked in that we're basically clear. If you paid more attention to yeast and hop interactions I bet you'd be able to get stable, predictable haze

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junkyard View Post
    Also it's not always yeast in suspension that causes the haze.
    Any haze you get from suspended yeast is going to fall out fast. Yeast is the least important ingredient in a big hop forward NE IPA. Any neutral yeast works fine. If youíre relying on suspended yeast for haze your beers will change daily as they settle out.

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