Results 1 to 5 of 5

Thread: Cask ACS foam help.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    7

    Cask ACS foam help.

    I've had a 5 head ACS for about 4 years now and in the last 6 months it's become extremely problematic. We've had major seaming issues and now foaming issues. Below is an explanation of what I see and some questions/requests I have asked Cask for. Does anyone have such advice or information to hand?

    I'm not the person that fixes our line but I have been observing my guys recently and have some questions. I have searched in the manual for answers but haven't found any.

    We're having a lot of issues with foaming on the canning line. At the moment only fill head 1 is working perfectly. The other 4 are generally foaming too much. The odd thing is that independently when you press the all fill button some of them will clear and then start to foam again.
    Should the front fill tube run clear when the all fill button is pressed?

    It's the front fill tubes that show the foam.

    I have noticed that when the front tube is wiggled the foam will stop but usually starts again. Any explanation for this?

    The back line to fill head 1 has been swapped with the #2 but the foaming issue didn't clear.

    We take apart the fill head manifold regularly to clean the innards. This is done when we switch from beer to other beverages to change the O rings to prevent any cross-contamination.
    Is this something other customers do without issue?
    Would disassembling and reassembling cause issues?
    When reassembling are there some guidelines we should follow?
    Are there measurements that should be taken for correct alignment?
    Is there any documentation out there?

    Regarding the 'bullets' and springs.
    What observational signs are there that these may be worn and in need of replacement?
    is there any documentation that explains how the bullets, springs and foam and fill operation works in detail?

    Thanks
    Last edited by MaltBucket; 08-19-2019 at 04:53 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    339
    Anything changed with carbonation level?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Moab, Utah
    Posts
    572

    ACS 5 Matters and Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by MaltBucket View Post
    I've had a 5 head ACS for about 4 years now and in the last 6 months it's become extremely problematic. We've had major seaming issues and now foaming issues. It would seam that tech support are running out of ideas. Below is an explanation of what I see and some questions/requests I have asked Cask for. Does anyone have such advice or information to hand?

    I'm not the person that fixes our line but I have been observing my guys recently and have some questions. I have searched in the manual for answers but haven't found any.

    We're having a lot of issues with foaming on the canning line. At the moment only fill head 1 is working perfectly. The other 4 are generally foaming too much. The odd thing is that independently when you press the all fill button some of them will clear and then start to foam again.
    Should the front fill tube run clear when the all fill button is pressed?

    It's the front fill tubes that show the foam.

    I have noticed that when the front tube is wiggled the foam will stop but usually starts again. Any explanation for this?

    The back line to fill head 1 has been swapped with the #2 but the foaming issue didn't clear.

    We take apart the fill head manifold regularly to clean the innards. This is done when we switch from beer to other beverages to change the O rings to prevent any cross-contamination.
    Is this something other customers do without issue?
    Would disassembling and reassembling cause issues?
    When reassembling are there some guidelines we should follow?
    Are there measurements that should be taken for correct alignment?
    Is there any documentation out there?

    Regarding the 'bullets' and springs.
    What observational signs are there that these may be worn and in need of replacement?
    is there any documentation that explains how the bullets, springs and foam and fill operation works in detail?

    Thanks
    The ACS 5 is a Hypersensitive Machine on the Seamer and Filler end of things. We have successfully dealt with all the matters you are speaking about and I am the one who does cirtical repairs on the system.Ok with all that said lets get started.

    Excessive foaming is 95% about incorrect bright tank infeed pressure and temperature, full stop. " Break out " or " Runaway Foaming " is almost always a matter of insufficient line pressure. You need your beer at 35F and your gas pressure on your brite tank will likely need to be a good bit higher than you " think " it needs to be. See thread by Timm about the watchdog unit he has employed to deal with this matter and keep it in trim. It can be difficult to get the brite pressure stabilized and dialed in when you are fighting more than one issue at a time. The infeed manifold to the filler head has 25 Ft. of line for each head. The way you have that hose set oriented and clocked can have an effect, and it needs to be set up where it is in the sweet spot and kept that way. There may always be one head that is the last to clear. This is common. We do not use the foam feature, and you may not need it either. Top up is set to a range of .1 to .8. ALL of the solenoids, the relays that operate them, and the shuttles and springs need to be correctly installed and working.
    The FRONT tubes are linked to the Solenoid coils on the BACK SIDE of the filler head which is where the FOAM coils come into play. As I stated above, all of the electrical and mechanical has to be working correctly or you will have problems. You should NEVER get the filler head area where the coils and electronics are terminated WET. NEVER.
    If and when the coils develop an internal short, they can cause relay contacts to fail closed that line will stick ON. Any coil that feels smoking hot is a problem.
    Taking the filler head apart when its not absolutely necessary is definitely inviting trouble. If your CIP is working, I would only teardown for scheduled MTC. If you ever get into real production, you will not have time to be tearing the filler head down so often.
    There are certain drinks I would not run on the same machine when you are speaking about " switching." It all depends. You do not want to hit the machine with more than about 20PSIG on CIP.

    Cask has a Set Up guide for the Air Operated seamer as I am guessing you likely have on your ACS5. This setup will get you to baseline, but without some kind of way to read the finished seams in deep detail you will be in difficulties if you are not an expert at manual seam metrology. Also most of us involved in this sector do not start out will all kinds of double seam experience. You really need an optical metrology device as made by Kuhnke or Quality by Vision. This is what will allow you to master the subtle adjustments that are necessary on that seamer, and until you have this tool or otherwise have a resident expert that can do it by hand, you'll be at major disadvantage. If your adjustment is done incorrectly it can and will damage the tooling and the bearings in short order. If this happens, seam quality will go down double quick. If you are having major and regular seam quality issues, the likelihood of you having leaking cans on the shelf is way high. Bouncing back from that kind of failure is a tall and expensive order.
    My suggestion would be that you possibly have Cask come out and suss out the machine while doing any necessary repairs to get you back to a solid baseline.
    You need to be prepared to run higher gas pressure on your brite and change your operating procedure. Any can run with seam issues should necessarily stop until they are corrected and read as good because the consequences are large. This generation ACS5 is not a bad machine, but is of an earlier generation design and things have been learned since its introduction. It can be reliable, but it truthfully requires a full time mechanic in the plant or otherwise someone with high Tech ability that has the time to deal with everything that comes up including having all the right parts on hand for expected failures. This person will be able to know which parts I am speaking about strictly by running the machine for about 3 years and dealing with what comes up. The parts compliment can be mostly anticipated once a standard operation and consistency has been established. When you get into heavy production on this air operated seamer, keeping an eye on the bearings becomes a full time job. You should be running the Angelus seam rolls with the ceramic bearings and zerks on top. They should be lubed regular and should run 1 to 2 million cycles before the roll profile wear becomes and issue.
    All of the bearings involved have to be watched very closely, and with optical seam analysis capability you can notice " drift " in the setup quickly. I can walk up to the machine with air pressure on and test the tightness of all top side bearings by grabbing the seam rolls and applying some pressure in 2 directions. Same with the spindle. The table is more difficult to tell without tear down. The can readings tell it all.
    Just keeping it real.

    Star
    Last edited by Starcat; 08-18-2019 at 07:51 AM.
    Warren Turner
    Industrial Engineering Technician
    HVACR-Electrical Systems Specialist
    Moab Brewery
    " No Cell Phone Zone."

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by Starcat View Post
    The ACS 5 is a Hypersensitive Machine on the Seamer and Filler end of things. We have successfully dealt with all the matters you are speaking about and I am the one who does cirtical repairs on the system.Ok with all that said lets get started.

    Excessive foaming is 95% about incorrect bright tank infeed pressure and temperature, full stop. " Break out " or " Runaway Foaming " is almost always a matter of insufficient line pressure. You need your beer at 35F and your gas pressure on your brite tank will likely need to be a good bit higher than you " think " it needs to be. See thread by Timm about the watchdog unit he has employed to deal with this matter and keep it in trim. It can be difficult to get the brite pressure stabilized and dialed in when you are fighting more than one issue at a time. The infeed manifold to the filler head has 25 Ft. of line for each head. The way you have that hose set oriented and clocked can have an effect, and it needs to be set up where it is in the sweet spot and kept that way. There may always be one head that is the last to clear. This is common. We do not use the foam feature, and you may not need it either. Top up is set to a range of .1 to .8. ALL of the solenoids, the relays that operate them, and the shuttles and springs need to be correctly installed and working.
    The FRONT tubes are linked to the Solenoid coils on the BACK SIDE of the filler head which is where the FOAM coils come into play. As I stated above, all of the electrical and mechanical has to be working correctly or you will have problems. You should NEVER get the filler head area where the coils and electronics are terminated WET. NEVER.
    If and when the coils develop an internal short, they can cause relay contacts to fail closed that line will stick ON. Any coil that feels smoking hot is a problem.
    Taking the filler head apart when its not absolutely necessary is definitely inviting trouble. If your CIP is working, I would only teardown for scheduled MTC. If you ever get into real production, you will not have time to be tearing the filler head down so often.
    There are certain drinks I would not run on the same machine when you are speaking about " switching." It all depends. You do not want to hit the machine with more than about 20PSIG on CIP.

    Cask has a Set Up guide for the Air Operated seamer as I am guessing you likely have on your ACS5. This setup will get you to baseline, but without some kind of way to read the finished seams in deep detail you will be in difficulties if you are not an expert at manual seam metrology. Also most of us involved in this sector do not start out will all kinds of double seam experience. You really need an optical metrology device as made by Kuhnke or Quality by Vision. This is what will allow you to master the subtle adjustments that are necessary on that seamer, and until you have this tool or otherwise have a resident expert that can do it by hand, you'll be at major disadvantage. If your adjustment is done incorrectly it can and will damage the tooling and the bearings in short order. If this happens, seam quality will go down double quick. If you are having major and regular seam quality issues, the likelihood of you having leaking cans on the shelf is way high. Bouncing back from that kind of failure is a tall and expensive order.
    My suggestion would be that you possibly have Cask come out and suss out the machine while doing any necessary repairs to get you back to a solid baseline.
    You need to be prepared to run higher gas pressure on your brite and change your operating procedure. Any can run with seam issues should necessarily stop until they are corrected and read as good because the consequences are large. This generation ACS5 is not a bad machine, but is of an earlier generation design and things have been learned since its introduction. It can be reliable, but it truthfully requires a full time mechanic in the plant or otherwise someone with high Tech ability that has the time to deal with everything that comes up including having all the right parts on hand for expected failures. This person will be able to know which parts I am speaking about strictly by running the machine for about 3 years and dealing with what comes up. The parts compliment can be mostly anticipated once a standard operation and consistency has been established. When you get into heavy production on this air operated seamer, keeping an eye on the bearings becomes a full time job. You should be running the Angelus seam rolls with the ceramic bearings and zerks on top. They should be lubed regular and should run 1 to 2 million cycles before the roll profile wear becomes and issue.
    All of the bearings involved have to be watched very closely, and with optical seam analysis capability you can notice " drift " in the setup quickly. I can walk up to the machine with air pressure on and test the tightness of all top side bearings by grabbing the seam rolls and applying some pressure in 2 directions. Same with the spindle. The table is more difficult to tell without tear down. The can readings tell it all.
    Just keeping it real.

    Star

    Star,

    Thank you for taking the time to add such a detailed response.

    It's only just recently that we've started to experience so many problems. When we had previous seaming issues the problem was identified quickly, new OP, chuck etc. needed. For the recent issue we had it could have been a combination of one of many things that we replaced one after the other until the issue went away. We went so far as replacing the actual motor itself. We also had a hairline fracture in one of the parts that was apparently a known design fault.

    Same with the foaming. We've been able to pinpoint the issues very quickly but recently it just won't go away. Our temp is typically below 35F and we've tried varying head pressures. Today we rebuilt the whole manifold and fortunately the issue has cleared, for the moment!

    I'm thinking that we're running the line harder than it was intended for. We've done over 1M cans this year and it may be that we're just running into regular issues on a much more frequent basis than we're used to. It may be time for a new line.

    Coincidentally, I had Kuhnke on site for a demo last week due to our recent issues. It will be one of my next purchases.

    My search skills don't appear to be very good. Are you able to link me to the Timm thread on the watchdog unit?

    EDIT - I found the thread.

    Thanks again.
    Last edited by MaltBucket; 08-18-2019 at 02:32 PM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Moab, Utah
    Posts
    572

    Quality by Vision

    Quote Originally Posted by MaltBucket View Post
    Star,

    Thank you for taking the time to add such a detailed response.

    It's only just recently that we've started to experience so many problems. When we had previous seaming issues the problem was identified quickly, new OP, chuck etc. needed. For the recent issue we had it could have been a combination of one of many things that we replaced one after the other until the issue went away. We went so far as replacing the actual motor itself. We also had a hairline fracture in one of the parts that was apparently a known design fault.

    Same with the foaming. We've been able to pinpoint the issues very quickly but recently it just won't go away. Our temp is typically below 35F and we've tried varying head pressures. Today we rebuilt the whole manifold and fortunately the issue has cleared, for the moment!

    I'm thinking that we're running the line harder than it was intended for. We've done over 1M cans this year and it may be that we're just running into regular issues on a much more frequent basis than we're used to. It may be time for a new line.

    Coincidentally, I had Kuhnke on site for a demo last week due to our recent issues. It will be one of my next purchases.

    My search skills don't appear to be very good. Are you able to link me to the Timm thread on the watchdog unit?

    EDIT - I found the thread.

    Thanks again.
    You were actually able to get Kuhnke on site? Thats mind blowing. They do not even come out for start up if you buy 18k worth of gear. Read all fine print.
    My advice is that you speak to " Quality by Vision " and strongly consider going with that system instead. They have other complimentary systems that work along side it, their customer service comes off as superior as well as the price of the total system. Take note that seam metrology is a " reactive " approach which can work well only as long as it is done and followed up on regular. Logs and spreadsheets are advised. Because the chuck drive motor has a carbon steel shaft, you need a very good barrier grease on it every time you service the spindle, and you should have the motor you removed repaired if the keyway was gored out. This can be done easily at a motor shop. The beer goes after that shaft quickly, so it needs extra protection. They need to re-spec the design to SS shaft due to the exposure. The fit of the spindle key should not be too loose. The spec seamer grease works well for this purpose. The thing about bright pressure is locating the " zone." Its likely to be at least around 18 PSIG if your setup and infeed is anything similar to ours. Again the tendency is to run too low. It behaves just like breakout on a draft system.

    Star
    Warren Turner
    Industrial Engineering Technician
    HVACR-Electrical Systems Specialist
    Moab Brewery
    " No Cell Phone Zone."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •